Don't Boil the Ocean

Tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, what do you care about? Okay, so my name is Amy Lynch. My pronouns are she, her. I am based in the UK. I'll start with work first. So I work for a global technology organisation called Thoughtworks, and I have been there for almost 13 years and I have no idea how that happened, but here we are. So I've done a few different roles within Thoughtworks.
Most recently, for the last kind of eight years, I've worked in diversity, equity and inclusion. So I currently… head up DEI across Europe. Before that I worked in marketing, employer brand, I started my career there as a recruiter so I was brought in to kind of hire a bunch of people and build a community which was really exciting for me so yeah I've kind of grown up. at Thoughtworks really and it has been such an amazing journey.
I've learned a huge amount. Yeah and I feel like the work that I do there has enabled me to be a better person as well so it's great because I can drive impact. within my organisation and even outside and with some of our clients as well. But I actually feel like it's helped me understand others better and recognise my own privilege and how I can support others and make the world a better place.
So that's me in the work capacity. I guess on a kind of personal level, I guess I'm… a bit of a disruptor and I guess that's in a workplace and outside of work. I am child free by choice. I am almost 40 years old. I'm looking forward to welcoming in my 40s later this year. I work part time and I've done that for eight years. So I work four days a week, which was one of the best things I've ever done for myself and shout out to Thoughtworks for supporting that.
I'm recently sober, so I stopped drinking alcohol about 18 months ago. I'm a former wedding photographer. I did that for nine years whilst working at Thoughtworks. So I've kind of got this really very varied life really in terms of my interests and the things that bring me joy and the things that I spend my time doing. So that is a bit about me.

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I love it. I love so many things about that. I love that you say child free rather than childless. Yeah. I really like that. I mean, being the mother of three teenagers, I do joke with my husband that in the next life, I'm definitely going to be child free. Really? Oh, yes. You know, it's really interesting actually, because child free is the kind of term that resonates most with me. But I have had conversations with women and childless is the right thing for them because it's, you know, it's complex, it's complicated.
Some of us are child free through choice, some of us are childless or child free through circumstance. I definitely feel in my journey that I have not really seen a lot of child free or childless women. And I don't feel like we hear enough about those narratives and those stories. I am actually listening to an audio book at the moment. Let me just grab the name of it. I think it's called Others Like Me, but I want to get the author for you as well.
Yeah, so this is Others Like Me by Nicole Louie. It's the lives of women without children. It's brilliant. It's stories of women from all over the globe with different backgrounds and experiences. And I wish this book existed when I was turning 30. So I felt like I wasn't alone in my mindset and my choices and decisions. But it is complicated. And I think parents and mums are superheroes. hats off to those who were balancing life and family and work and all of that stuff.
But I think there's space for all of us, depending on the journey that we're navigating, really. And I'm remembering the first time that we met, which was at an Aspire event in Manchester or Birmingham, was it? It was Manchester. I just remember this like shadow of blue hair coming in front of me. With this, you had a look on your face of like, prove to me that this is going to be valuable.
That's fair. That is fair. And you did. Well done. And I thought, oh, I know that look after 25 years, I've seen that look before. And I always loved that look because it's someone that is there to get value, right? Get value, make a difference. You want it to work.

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and I love that about you and I know we hit it off straight away. And diversity and inclusion, diversity, equity and inclusion is where you sit now. What do you care about in that space? Oh, that is such a good question. That is such a good question. So I guess when I When I first joined Thoughtworks as a recruiter, one of the parts of my interview process was, there are not enough women working in technology, how are you going to address that?
We really care about being representative of the communities that we serve. So I guess it was always in my mind that gender was important, gender equity. Funnily enough, when I was in the interview process, I had a very different opinion to what I do now. And my opinion was, well, the best person for the job all the time, this is what we should be doing. And whilst I do agree with that, actually back then, I don't think I really understood equity, you know? equal opportunities is fine if the playing field is level, right?
But different people face different barriers. So equality doesn't work equitably for everyone. So yes, I believe that it's the right person for the job, but we need to be more proactive to connect with women, to connect with people of colour, to connect with people with disabilities, to make sure that any barriers that they face are removed. When you ask me what I care about, I care about gender equity. But I have a growing interest, and I think this is partly through the work that I do, I have a growing interest in understanding more about experiences that are different to my own.
So for the benefits of listeners, I am a white woman, I am cisgender, meaning that I identify as the gender I was assigned at birth, the sex I was assigned at birth. But I'm very, very passionate about trans inclusion, trans and non-binary people, not only in the UK, but everywhere are under attack. Rights are being rolled back in many ways, limited access to healthcare. These are things that I think we really do need to pay attention to.
Even if it doesn't affect us directly or indirectly, we need to be more aware of the challenges that certain folks face. Race equality is something that I'm really passionate about. Neurodivergence, so if you're unfamiliar with the term, this is autism, ADHD, there are a number of other things that fall under the neurodivergent umbrella. I'm very interested about how that shows up in women. because we've seen a massive increase in late diagnosed women who are so good at masking that they have gone undetected for many, many, many years.
And we're seeing that change now because there's so much more access to information that people are starting to understand more about their experiences. So when you ask me what I care about, there are many, many, many things. I also want to say

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When you work in diversity and inclusion, it can feel really overwhelming because, you know, there is so much that needs to improve in our world, in our society when it comes to equitable opportunities. So someone once said to me, don't try and boil the ocean. And I really like that because sometimes you can feel so overwhelmed by all of the things that need to be done. And that can lead to inaction because people don't know where to start.
So I work in this space, I spend a lot of time, so therefore I have a lot of issues that I care about that I want to see improve. How worried or not are you about the rollbacks and about the attack on diversity and inclusion globally? So I do think it's worrying. I do think it is things are moving in a direction that I don't feel comfortable with. And I don't think I'm alone in that.
What I choose to do, and I recognise the privilege that I have being able to do this, I choose to focus on what can be done. I choose to focus on the impact that I can have and the communities that I can serve. So sometimes… you know, I might shut my laptop at the end of the day and turn on the telly and then you've got the news and you realise that actually when you shut your laptop, that isn't the last thing that you hear.
You see things in your local community, you see things happening globally, you watch things on the telly and you see that actually this inequity is everywhere. But I try and not let that disarm me. because I know that the work is needed and I know that the impact it can have is beneficial to the people that need it. So yes, I am worried. Am I getting distracted by the noise around it?
Absolutely not. And I think that would be my advice to anyone is please don't let yourself get bogged down and overwhelmed by the noise. of rollbacks and what's happening globally, we can continue to do what we know is right. And we should continue to do that. And we can mobilize as communities and really drive that change forward. Tell us a little bit more about how you do that. I love that you said this phrase, don't boil the ocean.
So it can be overwhelming. It can lead to procrastination.

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So give us a little bit more about the practicalities of how you overcome obstacles and move into action. Yeah. So firstly, I think that one of the biggest barriers to inclusion is people not wanting to get things wrong. So people, most people Not everyone, but most people, I genuinely believe, don't want to cause harm, don't want to upset people, aren't sure of what language to use, aren't sure of how to show up, aren't sure whether spaces are for them or not.
So let's talk, for example, about spaces for women, okay? So if it's International Women's Day is coming up, we're looking forward to it. But actually if men are not part of that conversation. If men are not in that room, will we see the change happen that we so desperately need? I would suggest not. And that's why we need everyone to feel part of the conversation. And from discussions that I have had with men, a lot of the time they say, well, that's a women's event, so it's not for me.
I don't want to come and take up space or I don't want to kind of take space that is meant for women. So I think we have gaps that need to be bridged pretty urgently. And I think we need to bring people together because what I am seeing, and I've been seeing this for a long time, is diversity, equity and inclusion can be incredibly divisive. It feels a lot of the time like us and them.
And as long as it's seen like this, I don't think we will see the progress that we need to see. So what we need to do is create more spaces for open conversation. We need to create space for people to make mistakes, but also know how to kind of handle that with grace and how to hold themselves accountable and try and move forward. So I'm very much about that, bridging gaps, starting conversations, getting people together, getting people to lean into that discomfort.
A lot of what I

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do is around collaboration. I really, really think that if we are to be successful, it will take all of us to work collaboratively. So, you know, I do that with working with our employee resource groups within Thoughtworks to understand from them what is working well for you and what is not working well for you and how can I… help to kind of unpack some of that, remove some of the barriers. What change do you need to see and how do we make that happen?
So it's just about understanding what needs to be done and then figuring out the best way to do that. So I very much care about empowering others. I very much care about supporting leaders with understanding more about different topics and how to get comfortable with talking about things. Earlier this month, we did a session internally about allyship around race equality because it's Black History Month in the US and a number of countries across Europe this month in February.
And we invited our leaders to come. And we said, please just come, show up, listen. And they did. and the amount of messages that I had saying, wow, I had no idea about this topic. I'd heard this thing, but I didn't really know what it was, you know, and like, this is what it's about. It's making sure that we get the right people in the right conversations to kind of invite people to think differently, to challenge some of their own beliefs, to learn about experiences that are different from their own.
So that's how I

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try and go about driving change in my work. What do you think are some of the personal skills or qualities that you've got that make this happen? I'm very resilient. You need to be resilient. I think being authentic is really, really important. So I get things wrong all the time, but actually being able to navigate that discomfort. I think that helps. I also think that authenticity, I hope anyway, enables my colleagues and my peers to know that they can come to me.
They can come to me and ask me a question and not feel stupid doing that, or they can come to me and share something difficult with me if they're having a hard time and they know that I'm going to treat that with respect and sensitivity. I'm a bit of an open book, which I think is a good thing and a bad thing. I've got a terrible poker face, but I do feel like people can talk to me and I do feel like people trust me to do the best that I possibly can, or let them know if I'm not able to do that and hold a boundary with people, because I think that's the other thing is…
Resilience is important, but you have to hold boundaries. You have to, because otherwise the overwhelm, the burnout, there's always more to do. I never close my laptop at the end of the week and go, I've completed DEI this week, go me. And I don't think I'll see that in my career or lifetime. So you do have to kind of hold a boundary. I do a lot of self-care. I don't love the term self-care, but you know, I prioritize walk, I'm out every day, I'm in nature every single day, that is a non-negotiable for me.
I have to hold boundaries with working four days a week because if I creep onto my emails on a Friday and respond to a few things or join some calls, then you're kind of not doing yourself any favors. So I feel like

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I have got into a good routine with how to resource myself in order to do the work to serve the communities that I want to serve. So I hope I answered that question. You did great. I think it's hard sometimes to recognise your own skills and strengths. One of the things I would say about you that I have observed is you have this great energy to you. sort of like there's reserves of energy in you, which are very appealing, you know, it's very like, integrity really shines out of you.
I think that is part of the authenticity that you're talking about. But there's also this integrity that you do care about this, you mean what you say, you're trying your best, you're doing the things that are important, and you're going to stick to it. And it's very, it's very steely in you too, Amy. It's like, Like, I know you come across as very light and fun, but also, I don't know how I would want to mess with you if someone tried to mess with DE&I.
I think that'd be a problem. So funny, because I think you are right. And I often get this feedback around, well, everything that you've actually just said, both the energy part and the infectious energy part, but also the, wow, she means business kind of thing. And I think, you know, I'm unapologetic about that because I want to bring people along on the journey and I think that's where the energy can really help with that.
I also want people to know that this is serious and it needs immediate action from all of us, like we can no longer be passive, we can no longer be performative and we care about this stuff but we're not doing the work to do it, so… I think it does need a firm hand to steer some of this work and to kind of like hold people to account and really make sure it sticks.
So thank you for the feedback and it's not the first time I've heard any of that. Which means it's true, of course. Where do you see yourself in the future? Do you see yourself staying in this space, progressing to something else, somewhere else? What's the vision?

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That is a really good question. And I am really, really, really bad at doing this. You know, when people say, where can you see yourself in five years time? And I'm like, what? I don't know. I don't know what I'm having for my tea tonight. So, um, I've always really struggled with this and I think it's, um, let me, let me reframe what I'm going to say. So. At the beginning of the call, I mentioned that I'd been a wedding photographer, right?
And I never, like, when I was younger, I wasn't like, I'm going to be a wedding photographer when I grow up, nor was I like, I'm going to work in diversity and inclusion, because I didn't even know that was a thing, right? So for me, actually, I like not having a plan. I like being a bit… Well, I am a little bit chaotic, I suppose, but I quite like that. I quite like embracing the chaos and saying yes to opportunities and seeing where that leads.
So I don't know where I will be in five years time. I know that it is very important for me to be doing work that I care deeply about. I know it's important for me to have an impact on others to be able to to do good stuff for other people is really important to me. And I've been able to do that at Thoughtworks and I've been able to build a really great career around that.
So long may that continue. If that continues, then I will happily continue to do my best work here. I don't know what the future looks like. There's still, I stopped being a wedding photographer.

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just over 12 months ago. And that was really because of work-life balance or lack thereof. You know, working four days a week at Thoughtworks and doing wedding photography and, you know, running a business isn't just showing up on the day and taking the photos. It's all the editing, it's the marketing, it's taking care of your accounts, it's the admin, it's everything. And I realised that for about nine years, I probably had been working seven days a week and it wasn't really, it wasn't really working. for me long term.
So I decided to stop doing the wedding photography. But I do, I am missing that creative outlet that I that I once had through doing my photography. So I don't know what that aspect of my life looks like in the future. Maybe there is scope for me to do something. I mean, I have creative hobbies, so I am very, very into drawing mandalas. So that takes a lot of my time, but also that's kind of like a mindfulness thing.
When I'm drawing and creating art, everything goes quiet and it feels really, really nice. And then I create something beautiful and I get to look at it. So that's good. So I don't know, I'm doing hobbies, whether it will lead to something else in the future, I have no idea. I remain open to things like that. But one of the things to mention here is

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I once watched a TED Talk by Emilie Wapnick, and it was on the topic of being a multipotentialite. And basically, I would recommend having a Google and watching this video. The idea of being a multipotentialite is that some of us don't have one true calling. And I think this is something that I've struggled with quite a bit. in my life is, you know, people say, well, what do you want to do when you grow up?
And I'm like, well, I don't know, there's loads of things. And actually this idea of multi potential, multi potentiality is some of us might be working in DEI whilst also being a wedding photographer, or do you know what I mean? There's, there's different things that we can do. And I watched that video and I just thought, wow, I feel really seen. Because when you have different things that you do, sometimes it can feel like you aren't taken seriously in any one of those things.
Because how can you be a credible wedding photographer when you're doing an office job four days a week? It doesn't make sense. So I think for a long time, I sort of had a foot in these two worlds and didn't feel like I've quite fitted anywhere. And then when I saw this multi potential TED Talk, I was like, oh, it's me. I feel seen. So I guess that's my long answer of saying, I don't know where I'll be in five years' time.
I keep my options open. I go towards the things that bring me joy and feel right. And it's served me well so far. So I'll probably just carry on doing that. Love it. And maybe you're ahead of your time. Well, I've never heard that before, but maybe. Who knows? We'll find out, I'm sure, in the future. yeah later on you'll be like the next generation will be all multipotentialites and you'll be like i didn't hear that until i was 40 something right yeah exactly why am i hearing this now pioneering final pieces of advice for anyone listening that they may be in DEI space or they may be not you know but they're they're wanting to

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you know, move forward on their goals and aspirations in their life and work. What do you have to say to them? What do I have to say? So if you want to make a difference in the world, in your community, whatever that looks like for you, I read a book that's called Microactivism. and it's by Omkari L. Williams. And this was such a beautiful book and I would highly recommend it because it bakes in these everyday small things that we can do to drive an impact in some way, shape or form.
So if you're feeling like you want to do something but you don't know what that looks like and everything just feels so big and complicated and ah, then just think about. the small things that you can do. So get that book, have a think about what micro activism might look like for you and bring some of those practices in and be kind to yourself and don't beat yourself up if you're, you know, if you feel like you're not doing enough or the change isn't happening quick enough, like this is okay.
If we're all doing what we can, I think that that will lead to great things.

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That would be my main piece of advice. Were you also thinking about broadly, so not just about DEI stuff, not about how to get more activated in activism stuff? Could be both. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think someone once said to me early on in my career at Thoughtworks, they said the standard that you walk by is the standard that you accept. And that's just something that really kind of stuck with me.
So sometimes when I see something or something happens that doesn't feel right, and I have a choice, right, where I can think, I'll just let that one go. But then sometimes I think, at what cost? If we let that go, what message does that send? And how will that impact other people, right? So it's never about me. It's like, if I let that go, how are other people going to be impacted by that stuff?
So, you know, there's, there's certain phrases like this that kind of guide me, I think in my career. So maybe not just career actually in life as well. So maybe there's some things in there that might help some listeners. And also I think just from a kind of personal point of view for anyone who is listening, don't feel bad for

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taking time for you for holding boundaries if you if the news makes you feel really sad it's okay to not watch the news right and i know that's a privilege because some people don't aren't able to just turn the telly off and it doesn't affect them but like whatever you need to do to look after yourself, to resource yourself, to set yourself up for success, to be able to be the best version of yourself for your family or like whatever, whatever that looks like.
I think it's just, I have learned that making decisions to prioritize my own needs as a human has been a real game changer and I guess I'd talk about sobriety here. you know, I made a decision for myself to tread a path that felt very scary and unknown because I knew it was the right thing for me to explore. Um, and that has been amazing because I've proved to myself that it can be done and that I won't lose all of my friends and I won't become really boring.
And actually it will be one of the best things that I do for myself. So like for anyone who's listening, it's never too late for you to make changes to your life or your career or your trajectory. if it feels like the right thing for you to do, you will make it work. And if it doesn't work, you've learned something and you can change direction at any point. So, yes. Love it.
Thank you. Totally inspired.

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