Men, Make the Tea!

What do you want to get out of doing this, by the way? That was all about that. I just do whatever, if you ask for something, I just say yes. I don't question it. What do I want to get out of it? I don't know, actually. It'd be nice if we can think of a way of engaging men. That's my current dilemma. Me too. Yeah, that's my dilemma at the moment. How do we make men realise this is their problem?
Why is it your dilemma right now? What's going on? Because if I don't get the men engaged, the problems aren't going to change where we are with regard to the wider market that we're all dealing with. Had some really good conversations with some of the women in our organization. And it's like, actually there is somehow, and it's more than unconscious bias, we're preaching to the converted with the men as allies networks.
It's how do we, it's that part.

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And I just can't work out how to do that at the moment. And I shouldn't have to work out how to do it. How do I get the men to be self-aware so that they want to do it? And I don't know what the answer is to that one. Well, I think it's worth exploring. Tell us a little bit about you. Like, what do you do? Who are you? How did you get there?
Start with that. Okay. So the me, the Karen at home me, the real me probably. Obviously I'm married. I've got two grown up boys. Yeah. Life is very good. I'm very family orientated and friends, friends and family are the key to everything, but also theatre garden. My Rose garden is absolutely beautiful at the moment and travel we've got a motor home. So that is our love that we get to go to lots of different places.
And that's part of the probably will be the retirement plan. much to my husband's horror because I want to drive to Australia. I don't know how you do it, but I've just decided it can be done. The work side transformation leader currently working for Joint Venture, which is a joint venture between the Lloyd's of London, IUA and DXC Technology. That's like transformation of the technology, the people, the processes, all the normal three that everyone always says, and also the customer base.
For me, my background, how did I get here? Okay. So I started as a grad in the nonprofit sector doing technology. I did a tech degree where not many people did technology degrees. So it was a bit of a, everyone thought I was slightly strange going into that technology stuff and then work my way through from all the nonprofits did everything from account management, program management, head of L&D at one point, some really cool different experiences from.
I don't know, normal meetings took one point. I was over in Kuwait training loads of Iraqi non-government organizations, how to use technology, which was actually an amazing opportunity, slightly surreal, but good fun. And then 11 years ago I went into financial services. So I moved out of the nonprofit and originally to do big technology transformations. One thing sort of led to another thing and through reputation more than anything I've got approached about. different programs of work within organizations and then outside of the organizations.
So that's sort of where I am now. And what do you love about what you do? We have got the ability to change a market and that's really cool, but also I've got an amazing group of people working with really, really good, talented people who just want to make a difference. So that's probably keeps me happy.

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And you mentioned earlier that not many people were doing technology degrees. I imagine not many women were doing technology degrees, not many women still going into technology. So what made you go into technology as a woman and how's it been? So I ended up in it as a mistake, full disclosure. I applied for a business studies degree and I didn't do as well in my exams as I should have and this course offered me so through clearing.
I got offered this and I thought, give it a go. There were lots of different routes within my degree. It was a real modular degree. And two of us were the only females who took the real pure technology route. I should have known better then shouldn't I? Because I remember having lots of arguments with the lecturers over some of the terminology that they used and everything saying, it's just not inclusive. I don't feel like I'm welcome here.
They were actually really great and they listened because they weren't. quite used to. They'd never had anyone before and they hadn't had anyone before like me and my friend who was also doing that, who were quite forthright in things that we felt were wrong. How have I felt it since? In the nonprofit, I probably noticed it less being a woman, but also I was at a more junior level. So I think as I've climbed up the ranks, I there's less and less of me.

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So part of my, as you know, Sam, part of my personal mission is to make sure that I am bringing up through the right, as many women as I can, because I want to be in the room with loads of women. So when I was in Aviva, both of those CIOs were women. And that was brilliant. That was really great working with really senior women, because you could show that things could be done differently.
And that was a lot of the focus of what I've. try and do is make sure that we are trying to show how technology can be done differently with more compassion, with more thought about the people to make it more compelling for people to use it, but also for people to want it to be in our industry. You mentioned something you said that your personal mission is to sort of show how women can do things differently.
How can women do things differently? How is that a good thing for business? I think women bring a different aspect to leadership and to how they work with people. With that leadership, we can bring compassion and actually understand what people need. It's about taking the ego out. Now don't get me wrong, there are feminine and masculine traits that all men and women use. Some women are more on masculine traits and I do accept that.
However, if I look on average, more women will use feminine traits, which is more about collaboration, collective as a collective, what is the right way forward? There is more us than I. That actually helps business. We've all read the reports. There's thousands of reports saying how businesses with more women make more money is fact. And I think we need as industries as wider communities to start actually reading it, listening to it and looking at how we put more women into those positions.
For my world, I notice on specially some high profile programs of work, the personality difference. If you've got the person with the right personality who uses a lot of compassion, collaboration, empathy, in their way of working, it goes quicker because you just cool down the egos, the temperament, the testosterone, all of that passion gets directed in a good way. Instead of having some conflict, you get a lot less conflict. So for me, that's where it's worked.
Oh, I love that. And you're doing this from a space of working in a very, very traditional male set of organisations.

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So this really is lived experience for you. And yet, you know, we started off this call with you saying how you wanted to get more men involved in this conversation. So tell me a bit more about what's going on in your head with that. So one of my worries in life, in life in general, is that everyone focuses on it's a woman's problem and it isn't, it's a human problem. And it's about how do we engage the right people?
Now, a lot of the people you can engage at the easy people, they know it, they agree with it, you're preaching to the converted. If you sit in a room full of women and say, there is inequality, of course, they're going to say yes, and they can give you 1000 stories that will break your heart and make you laugh and it will be some of them will do both. If you get men in that room from the gender equality aspect, they will agree with you because they've walked into that room.
It's about how do we get the people who either don't realize there's a room to walk into to have these discussions or actually worse. don't want to be part of these discussions. And how do we slowly, because it can't happen overnight, but how do we slowly educate them to actually start making real change and little bits at a time, but how do we do that? So it's not automatically, I was having a brilliant conversation with a woman in my organisation last week, just phenomenal.
And she said that, and it's enlightened me.

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she's noticed in meetings, if a male says something, it's taken as opinion for woman says something, she's asked for it to be an action. Now, it's really interesting. And that was when we were talking and that's in a diversity conversation. That's not just like work. That's when people are looking at how can we make a difference. And so it was great, because now my eyes are open, and I'm going to really pay attention to that. to see if I see it and then I can notice it as well.
But it's things like that. How do we stop that? How do we make sure that everyone is taking actions? How everyone is looking at this and seeing that we need to make it more equitable and how our men stand up with their peers, their male peers and say, no, that's not acceptable. Why? Why? Just because I'm trying to think we get it less, but why is it always the women who arrange the Christmas party?
Why aren't a group of men doing it? Why is it that someone's off sick? It will tend to be one of the females who say, have we sent flowers? How do we change all those small things as well as all the bigger things and making sure that people get in a voice in the room is all these different levels.

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And that's the key, I think, but I don't know how to, I've got to find how I engage them because I can get lip service, but lip service is no good. And why do you want to engage them? Because it's their problem. It's a male problem. It's not a female problem. For years we've been told, many years ago when we first met, it was a fix women. To this day, I laugh at the fact that they got, it was a very intelligent HRD who said, yeah, and pulled you in.
We knew it wasn't a fix women. You knew it wasn't, but that's what they thought it needed. Women needed to be better at presenting women needed to be this women needed to change this. No, we don't. We need to have a fair playing field where we are all in the same position and everyone can compete fairly. And that's the bit that at the moment, the blocker for that is that and male self-awareness.
I have lots of conversations with men and sort of say, did you realize that when you said that it could appear as that? No. Can you come away and think about that? Oh, okay. And it is that, how does that impact someone else? And I think it is, we need everyone to really start owning that self-awareness and thinking about how it impacts other people. And that's the challenge because you've got to want to do that.
Well, I mean, it's just what you've just talked about just now, maybe rather than teaching women how to be better presenting in meetings or… wear the right height shoes or whatever it was. We can teach women how to speak up about this more and how to raise awareness, just like you did very well. Because I think that could be something, couldn't it? We've got this army of women now who've sort of had enough.
And women like you that are in senior positions or women that are making up to senior positions. And we do have all the skills now. I think to start coming together and having these kinds of conversations. And I think, you know, you say that when you talk to them and you let them know, have you thought about this? Did you realize, no, I didn't think about it. No, I didn't realize when you go off and think about it.
Yes, I will. I mean, that's got to be a good start, isn't it? I think it's a start, but they've got to really want to change. And I think that is the it's and they've got to be willing to share.

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their experiences. And maybe, maybe it is a feminine masculine thing. I know with my group of phenomenal women around me, some friends and whatever, we will go, Oh, guess what someone said. So someone said to me the other day that when I'm nervous, I talk really big with my hands. And I've had that conversation with about four different women. I know. How? did we realize and whereas if that conversation had been with a man I doubt he would have gone to his group of male friends and said do you think I appear in that way whereas I'm like now trying not to use my going well when do I use my hands when don't I am trying to analyze it to make sure I use it for effect and I think it's all things like that how do we get men to have those conversations.
And recently I spoke to someone who'd taken six months paternity leave and it was brilliant. And he is a real advocate for paternity leave. His child is, he said the bonding that he got with his child and he has gone out of his way to talk about it with other men. And he's been surprised about the amount of, I suppose, sexism he's had with But hasn't it affected your career? All of the questions that women have got asked for centuries, he's got asked, but he's been really good.
And it's taken that as more passion to talk to more men about it. But again, people have got more than listen. And that is the thing. It's about how do you make sure people have absorbed it and listening? Because I think women for a long time have been telling people and just people don't, just some people just don't want to listen. All right. So, well, there's another idea in there that I think is a really good one, which is having male role models of femininity.
So somebody that took on paternity, it reminds me of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, one of her first cases where she supported a man. And so that's something else too, isn't it? And I think that's such a great example, but there's still this bit that you keep coming back to.

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which is those that don't want to change, those that don't, those that aren't listening. And that's a problem. Yep. There is a layer of men that are not listening, don't want to listen, or worse, are mansplaining their way through this whole thing, thinking that everything's all right, you know, and it's really not, it's really not. And so how do we get to them? And what is worrying is that I always used to think they were like two generations or a generation ahead of me, and they will retire soon, they will be retiring soon, so the problem will go.
But actually, I see it in some younger men. And that breaks a little bit of my heart. Because how? And I, yeah, it's It's worrying. But there is must be a way we need. And I think this is where it has to be. We need men to stand up and say, this is our problem. Because if you look at any diversity and inclusion initiative in any company, if any, the majority of males will be men that are not white, middle class, probably over 50. we know they won't be there.
How do we get because that and a lot of companies, they are the decision makers. So how do we get to them? How do we get to that? And as you're saying, it's like the role models. And then speaking up more with with the army of women who, as you said, have had enough. But it's that how and what can I do? And how can I help signpost those women in my organisation or my mentor circles and my wider to have the confidence to have those conversations because some of them are scary with some people when you know they don't want to listen.
I had one with someone external last week and my husband's face was all this could go one way or the other. And you could see. And I would, I just, I was so respectful. And I know the person personally, I think they're lovely human being, but they were, in my view, wrong about their attitude towards one thing. And we had this discussion. I hope they listened. I'll know over the coming weeks and months, if they have.

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but it is, it's how do we get people to truly listen and not go, yes, this D&I is a very good thing to do. Have I done it now? Tick. Tick. Yeah. You know, I just, I was talking to a fabulous woman this morning as well. She was talking about this focus on numbers, like let's get 30% of women, 50% of women. But what she's saying is, you might get a woman in the boardroom or whatever, but are you really listening to her?
So I mean, we're coming back and does she really have any influence? So we keep coming back to listening. And I mean, thinking about, you know, a number of approaches that have happened over the last 10, 15 years about engaging men and The big focus has been on the business case, isn't it? Let's talk about the business case. There's research at the yin yang about if you have more women on teams, you get more innovation, you get better decision making, you make more money.
Well, no one's really listened to that. Developing and asking men to be allies and sponsors. I mean, I'd say there's some success with that. you get some great men, you get some very well-meaning men, you get the men coming out at the start of the women's networking events, talking about, Oh yes, this is really important to us. And they go away and they don't think about it again until the next time they're asked to introduce an event.
I mean, I think there are the well-meaning guys out there for sure. And we get some of them are events they're fabulous. You get the guys that come and say, I have imposter syndrome too, and we all feel sorry for you and you know, blah, blah, blah, but it's still not shifting things. Or we do the whole, you've got a daughter, you've got a mother, you've got a sister, you've got a wife, right?
So of course you get this. And they sort of do, but they sort of don't. Because I've got a husband, I've got two sons and my dog is male, but I don't really understand what it's like to be male just because I've got a husband, two sons and a dog. So it's a bit of a stupid argument, really. Because if you don't have empathy skills, then you can't really step into the other person's shoes.
So… I don't know. You know, I think that this focus on being so nice to men as well, like, you know, oh, you've got unconscious bias. You don't mean it. It's just an unconscious thing. You're being an asshole, but you've got unconscious bias. We do some unconscious bias training and it's all going to be fine. I mean, kind of imagine how much money has been spent on unconscious bias training.

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I'm still really not seeing that much change. So I know I keep coming back to Gloria Steinem because she's always someone good to come back to. And she said, women should be less grateful, more rebellious. I feel like the rebellion is brewing. I agree. I think it is. And it's really interesting when I talk to younger women, they just expect it, but you worry that they will lose that passion. for just saying but this is what I should expect.
I think my generation we need to be there and cover their backs and try and splat off this so that they hopefully are coming in but then probably our mothers and our grandmothers still the same and it has moved forward but it's not moving forward quick enough and Maybe, I don't know, I never was a fan of positive discrimination. Someone said something really lovely the other day to me as well that her husband was saying how he works in a very female dominated industry in nursing.
And he felt that he obviously sees a different side of the gender divide. and she said yeah but what you don't realize is the pendulum has swung so far one way it's not going to hurt the world if it swings a little bit towards the positive then it will even out i was like actually that's quite a good way of seeing it but i think we need to start doing more there has to be some big systemic changes because if we carry on like this it's just going to nibble away nibble away nibble away and actually we're going to make a difference We won't make a difference.
What is interesting, one of my friends and a few of my friends who are looking for jobs at the moment are only looking for jobs that have got women in leadership. They are purposefully only going for jobs with female led companies, which again I think is fantastic. There's not many around, but they are focused. That is what they want. We need to They're really talented in the market. Loads of companies are approaching them and they're like, can I look at your board thing?
No. Next. And they are telling companies why they're not doing it like phenomenal on them. Like that is real conviction, but they also know what they want. And they know that that a company that is led in that way will meet their personal values. more likely to meet their personal values. So they're not going to being frustrated. That's their focus. So they're voting with their feet, aren't they? Yeah. I love that.
I mean, it's got to be, I mean, we, like you said before, we can't put all the focus on women to create this change and asking men to be more self-aware or whatever. It's got to be united and it's got to be men have got to start realizing it's highly systemic. So then we start getting into

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legislation and policy, because it can't all be just the slow organic growth of hoping it's all going to be okay. We'll be dead by then, Karen. Yeah. And also we can't forget the intersectionality of it all, because otherwise it ends up with a board full of half white women. That's still not representation. It is about how we make sure that we are bringing up all I'm very, I'm going to be gender biased for this, but how we bring up all women and how all women from all backgrounds.
I grew up on a council estate. That's just how circumstances fell for my mum at that point in her life. My mum was phenomenal when I look at, but then I was brought up by a mum, an auntie and a grandma, if I look at it and a sister. So if I look now, I'm like, ah, it was all destined to be because I grew up with four very strong women around me and nothing was ever off games.
I mean, it was like, well, if you want it, go and get it. And I think we need to make sure that we're helping people who haven't got those four strong women around them or haven't got that opportunity and we're getting them into these sort of industries. So I work for financial services where I am currently we're setting up the apprentice scheme. But in my last organisation, that apprentice scheme is brilliant.
Our focus was on the kids that wouldn't be the standard people going into financial services. We didn't aim. we spoke to one of the local housing associations to help us advertise not the local private schools. Do you mean it was all very much that because we knew the kids who went to the private schools would probably have pushy parents like I was with my children and would have found out about all of these schemes.
Let's go to the people who wouldn't necessarily know that they're out there, know to look. and actually encourage them in. And then hopefully we've got this ground force. But as you said, we just can't be waiting for the next 40 years. I don't want to be like really retired or dead before there's a change. I want it that it just, yeah, we need to do something over the next probably 10 years to just get a big bash of that's enough now.
Come on.

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Let's get some equality out there for everyone. I like this idea. You know, I'm wondering about the allies already and starting to expand that. I know you said, you know, you're talking to the converted, but the converted can maybe talk to the unconverted. Yeah. And start bringing them on. And I think the conversation is much better. I can't remember who did it. It might be PWC. I went to, I'll have to look it up.
I was still being tinted these two guys and they did a, they used to run these sessions for men by men to discuss equality and they, and it was led by senior leaders. So it wasn't like people would rock up. And he said to me, I can't tell you some of the conversations we had Karen, because you would be shocked. but when someone has come out with something like oh one of my staff's gone off on maternity leave or oh I've got someone in the pool so suddenly they've got eight other men going and so what are you doing about it how are you supporting that person and he said that conversation is a lot more powerful than having a woman trying to explain why a hot flush is not the most pleasant of experiences and actually might need 10 minutes to go outside to cool down or change the top and stuff like that.
So yeah, it is, it probably is getting the male ally networks to really up their game. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, think about the conversations we have as women when it's only women and women having their own spaces and it's safe. and you can be vulnerable and you can talk about your stuff and you're not being judged. And I think that's quite difficult to do sometimes when we're sitting there, it gets, it can get a bit adversarial between men and women and rightly so.
And maybe it's not as helpful. I mean, men need to have their own space as well. I spoke to this fabulous guy this morning, Mark Freed from an organization, Men for Inclusion. Yeah. So we were talking this morning. It's like, this has been the whole day for me. It keeps coming up. I was talking to him this morning. He's coming over to Aspire next week and we're going to join forces because it's just like, we're both like, we've both been doing this for 22 years and we're back from like, I'm tired.
I'm going to die eventually. We need to get this sorted out. And he's exactly of the same, you know, he's exactly of the same mode and he's got this access to this organization. He's building Men for Inclusion.

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I think that's the key. We've got to start having these, men have to start having these kind of conversations because it's just, you know what it's like. I'm in and out of your organisation. I'm going in and out of these meetings. No one's sitting there talking about equality. Definitely not in your day-to-day business meetings. Maybe in a diversity conversation, but that's a separate thing, isn't it? And that's also what we've got to try and stop, is the separate conversation.
It should just be intertwined. We talk about finance, we talk about the equality aspect and everything like that. And it should, should, shouldn't be the, now we're going to talk about equality. How many percentage of people have we got who fit this criteria? Tick. Do you know what I mean? It's that, how do we do it that everyone's just doing it and just being conscious. And don't get me wrong, there are some really, and I think this is, it gets the fear factor that, oh, that means every. white male over 50 is never going to get another job, boring, boring, boring, all of that stuff.
When you look at the numbers, that's not true. There were more jobs now than we've ever needed. Let's just get different people to come into. For me, technology industry and the financial services industry, we've got more jobs than people. Why aren't we trying to attract people from different industries different, like, and we'll get some really cool different thought patterns will get people who are a little bit different, who don't want to do it in the same way, because that's all they've ever known.
And that's not their fault. They've been in the same industry with the same company, a lot of their lives. Of course, they only know that way. But how do we encourage them to go and pick up a book and look at the, I don't know, the other one I was reading there. Oh, is it David Rock? I think he's the way your brain thinks, but things like that. to actually go, oh, if I thought a little bit differently, this situation that could have turned out like this, could end up like this.
Do you know what I mean? Like, how do we get them to be self aware and self develop? So that they're thinking, even though they've been in the same company for however long a years, because most companies, the only thing they make people do is unconscious bias training, which is okay. But if you don't follow that up by conversations of, well, what does that actually mean? It's a, oh, I've got to do my essential learning or do my cyber security one, then I'll do my unconscious bias one and I'll do my whatever one, tick, tick, tick, I've clicked 20 times, I've done it, next, I'll think about that again next year.
So how do we just embed it in our thinking? And that I think needs, it needs a male perspective on it.

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because as you said, we'd know how to do it for women. We can't do it for men. And we can't tell them how they should think because we are different. Well, the system was designed a long time ago, wasn't it? You know, it wasn't only designed for men, but it was designed hundreds of years ago for a very traditional way of thinking. We were never meant, you know, we want to belong.
We were never meant to belong. yeah we're only here because we got quite rowdy over the years yeah that's you know that's why we're here constantly improving our value coming into the workforce was not designed for us so i think easy i think the whole thing needs to be designed not just for us for everybody you think of some of the some of the young leaders you've got around you are absolutely fantastic you want to keep them yeah otherwise they're going to be voting with their feet like everybody else and not just not going to just be women that are going to going off to work for women-led businesses there's going to be young men as well yeah because they'll know that they're going to get something they don't generally get i also really loved what you said earlier about this approach saves time this approach has less conflict to it this approach makes decision making easier this approach means that things don't blow up

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And when everyone has got to be so efficient these days with doing more with less, then it's got to be the only way to go. That's got to be a way in, I think. That's really got to be a way into some of these conversations. If you had a message for men listening to this podcast, what's your message? Ask 10 women around you in the next 24 hours how you can help them. and what you are doing that impacts them in a positive and a negative way.
And listen. And even if, when you get home, if it makes you want to cry a bit, cry a bit, because that's fine. And then work out how you are impacting other people. And if that's positive, brilliant, carry on doing it. But if someone says something that you think, I didn't realise, then… think about it next time you go to do that, make the tea. Do you know what I mean? I know it's silly.
One of the most wonderful, I'm trying to think this must be 11, 12 years ago, one of my first big senior roles and one of the partner companies and it was like head of sales. And as I walked into this boardroom, it was massive. And he positioned me at the head of the table. I'm like, why are you putting me there? He was like, I was like, okay, sat there and he went and made me a cup of tea.
And I thought it was a bit strange, but afterwards I was like, why did you make me a cup of tea? And he went, I needed every single person in that room to know you were the decision maker, Karen. And he went, when you walk in the room, you're a woman. They're not used to seeing a woman decision maker. It said within 10 minutes of speaking, they knew you were the decision maker, but I needed to speed up that first 10 minutes.
I needed them to know right from the beginning, you were the decision maker. So that by the time as we started the meeting, it was fine. Now that was all the bit. And this guy is like six foot five, big, like really, really broad. And he did it because he knew that's the only way he could do it. Now that's wrong really. but it sped up the meeting and it made it obvious to everyone.
If Tim is doing that, Karen is the decision maker. And I think it's things like that. It is those acts of going probably over the top in some ways, but to support your women in that organisation and how you demonstrate that. And I think that's really key. So for me, for the men listening, do that, go and.

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Go and ask what you can do because you'll get an answer. You will not get the, oh, you're perfect. Everything you do is so helpful. Thank you. You will get, you will get some really honest answers from people about what you can do to help them. And what's your message for women listening to this? Find your girls, find your tribe, make sure that you've got a really good group, especially women who want to focus on their career. have a really good sounding board, all different levels.
For me, it's like, yes, there is the, if you are in the position, you can get professional tribes, the coaches and things like that, but for mentors, but also your family circle, the support you're getting there, but also have a group of people that you can just ring up to every so often. And even if you want to cry, you want to swear, you want to shout, you want to laugh, but just somewhere to sort of let it out.
Because that group you will find they're like the mesh that helps you become all part of each other and you sort of spring keep springboarding each other up as you have those conversations. Because either you can practice and go, I really want to say this to this person.

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And then they'll go, Oh, yeah, what about and I'll get it right for you. But have that network. Because if you don't have that, it's really hard. But also, don't be scared to ask for stuff. And if you want to find senior women in the organisation, 99.99999% of those women will help you. So go and talk to them. always, I always say to anyone, very few people will turn down a request for a half hour mentor session.
Just ask for that. Everyone thinks mentoring is a marriage. It isn't. It can be like a coffee and just ask, say, could I just have all ask for awkward amounts of time like 15 minutes or 20 minutes people are more likely to say yes for some reason I found but ask for that and go and talk to more senior women and say can you tell me about your story and is there any advice you can give me in this organization again 99.99% of those women are going to help but also will keep will keep that relationship with you. and will sit there and say, come see me in a month, come tell me how it's going.
And then you're also increasing your network, but also you're getting some wisdom from someone who's been there. Any final words? No, thank you. I always love talking to you and I've got loads of ideas. Yeah, there you go. I know. I was talking to one of the people who worked for me. and he was talking about men and allies and I was saying to him I need to message Mark and all the other people I know who do ally networks and now I'm gonna go let's hold on a day we'll speak to Sam once her and Mark meet.

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