Career Snakes and Ladders

Thank you for agreeing to do the podcast. I haven't done a podcast in a little while now, so it's nice to get back into it and have you as a guest. Thank you so much. No, I'm really delighted. Thank you. So tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, story of your life. Oh, just a small question to get us going then. Yeah. Okay. So I'm a solicitor.
That's my qualification. I've been a practicing solicitor for a long number of years, a lot of years, more than 35 probably. I absolutely love it and it's something I wanted to be from the age of 14, strangely because no one in my family was or is a solicitor actually, so I don't know where that came from. Kind of popped into my head and you know, along the way there's been some quite interesting, let's say roadblocks and things that I've kind of had to navigate.
But I got there and I absolutely love it. Still love it now. Although my role now isn't really doing the day to day legal work. Now I'm the Chief Legal Officer in a really massive organization. And I lead a legal function across 28 countries in the Nordics, Europe and Middle East. So that's a really exciting challenge. And I'm really privileged actually at this stage in my long career to still be facing new challenges and being given new opportunities.
So let me go back to being 14 then. So you said at 14. You knew you wanted to be a solicitor. No one had been a solicitor in your family before. So what appealed to you about being a solicitor that is taking you through this 30 plus year career? Well, if I'm really honest, I think it was because I thought solicitors were really clever. And I kind of thought, OK, I want to be that clever.
I don't know. It's a funny thing. But at 14. I didn't really know what it was. I think I always liked TV programmes about law and, you know, crime court and crime things and that sort of thing. Not that I am a criminal lawyer at all, but I guess there was something about it that appealed to me. So my dad, who didn't know anything about it, suggested I write to the Law Society.
And in true form, they have no clue how to write back to a 14 year old and, you know, enthuse them about a career in the law. So they sent me this enormous pack of totally, you know, ridiculous unfathomable kind of materials that I couldn't really understand at that age. But I do remember thinking, well, if solicitors are clever enough to understand all that, I think I. Still want to be one.
So it was kind of an intellectual challenge, I suppose, but also something about regulating relationships. I think, you know, everything, every single interaction that we have in our home life, in our work life, in our society, in the wider world is a relationship that is regulated by law at some point along the way. And I guess the The vastness of it, the variety of it, the possibility of it, I suppose, just really, really interested me and excited me.
I did enjoy the academic study of it as well, which is good because that's quite hard. But yeah, there's a lot you can do in a career in the law. It's not just one thing. And I suppose that kind of appeals to me still, really. And I mean, there's not a huge amount of women.

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In the law now, although it's, you know, it's slowly growing. How was it then being a female going into the legal profession? Yes, well, that's a really good question. I kind of, you know, having been told at school when I was, you know, 14, 15, whatever. I didn't, that really I shouldn't do law. I should do languages or classics. Those were the things that my teachers kind of wanted to push me towards.
But I kind of knew that I wanted to do law, so I kept going and stuck to my guns. And I was so excited when I qualified, you know, just the excitement of going to work and having a job. It was in the early 80s actually. And I was in South Wales at a time of real poverty and strife. It was the time of the miners strike. And I remember just being a mixture of so grateful that I had a job, but also so super excited.
It was, you know, I suppose the decade when Women of kind of post-war parents, you know, we're starting to have those opportunities and be in the workforce in any great numbers. And I just absolutely, you know, I was beside myself with excitement and then completely devastated when I absolutely hated it. It was, I was in a very traditional commercial law firm. In Cardiff. Full of men, obviously. There were some women there who were quite an influence on me, but it was horrible, actually.
The culture was so macho. It was, you know, a real kind of lunches for wimps culture. You have to stay till… It's sort of seven, eight o'clock at night, even if you'd finished your work and you didn't have that much left to do. You know, it was kind of about presenteeism and just real kind of sexism, to be honest. I look back at it now and I think, gosh, you know, I was in my twenties and I got, I was in sort of commercial property and I was the one going to meetings with really kind of.
Yucky commercial property guys. I was the sort of pretty blonde who got there because they wanted somebody pretty to look at over lunch and dinner and things and it was just horrid. I didn't like it at all and that was so devastating actually because you know it had taken me a bit of grit and determination to get there and then it was quite

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Yeah, it was really disappointing that I didn't enjoy it. I guess the thing that I always knew though was it wasn't the job that I didn't like. It wasn't being a solicitor that I didn't like. It wasn't the law that I didn't like. It was the culture and I guess even then I sort of knew that you could change that or you could make a Let's say you could take control of your own destiny a little bit.
And if you didn't like where you were, you could try something else. And so that's what I did. I mean, you know, there wasn't really anywhere else for me to go in Cardiff. That was the best firm really. And all the other firms were exactly the same. So I decided to go to London. I guess a lot of people did, you know, and still do because London offers huge… Possibilities and opportunities.
And that's where I suppose the second important thing happened, really. And that was kind of being open to new things, new possibilities, because I then didn't actually go into private practice. And in those days, you know, in the 80s, There weren't really in-house roles at all. If you went in-house it was definitely seen as… You couldn't really hack it in private practice. You know, you weren't good enough to be in private practice.
So you did, you did the in-house role and especially for a, you know, youngish woman. I'd only been qualified about two years or something, you know, to sort of give up a role in a big law firm and go and do something else was not really everyone thought I was either mad or just couldn't. You know, couldn't make it sort of thing, but I went to, I went to an interview and it was, it was basically the, the recruiter said, there's this opportunity available in an in-house role.
Are you interested in it? And I never really considered it, but I thought, well, I'll go along. What's the worst that can happen? It's good experience for interview techniques and things. I went along and the minute I walked through the door, I kind of knew it was my job. That was where I was meant to be. And I've been in-house since 1988, so I'm still there, still loving it. So you never know, do you, where things are going to take you?
But I did know that I still wanted to be in the law and it wasn't that that was the horrible bit. It was the culture. And so changing it made all the difference. That's a really great point. You realized that it wasn't the law that you disliked. You separated that out. That it was the culture that you were in, the people that you were around, the atmosphere. That was what made the difference.
And then you did something that was, as I know you two have done many times, quite counter-cultural. So you left Cardiff, went to London, and then did something that not a lot of people at the time were doing, which is…

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Very pioneering. And I imagine that maybe people around you, like you said, thought you were doing something crazy. Why were you doing it? So how did you deal with those naysayers? Well, I guess I'm quite stubborn and quite determined. And I just, and it was, you know, really patronizing. There were a lot of working with external law firms where I'm now the client of the external law firm. And so many of them were still male partners and they would ring me up and say, well, you're obviously coming to us because you don't know anything or you need our help.
Terribly patronizing sort of approach to begin with, but you, I kind of just let it. Right over me a bit, and I just thought, well, I do know what I'm doing, so I'm quite happy if you want to assume that. Just wait and see. And yeah, I just I suppose kept going as you do. I'm, as I say, quite stubborn, quite resilient. Fortunately, you dust yourself off and keep going. And because I was enjoying it, I was in a place where it was a bit like the Wild West.
It was a Actually brilliant culture where it didn't matter what qualification you had. If you saw something that you could do, that you could do better, that you could make a difference to, they just let you do it. And that was amazing actually. You know, people from who started there in the post room ended up being kind of global head of insurance or whatever. You know, it was one of those companies.
Where you could just make it whatever you wanted it to be. And I think that was also then something I learnt is you can kind of reinvent yourself. As well, and you don't have to stick to one thing. You don't have to be pigeonholed. You don't have to, you know, say, well, this is my role. So that's all I'm going to do. You can actually do whatever you want to do, whatever you feel you can do.
And I was really lucky that I was in a place where that was encouraged and it was the culture. So. I don't know if that still exists now. I don't know. There's a lot more kind of parameters around things I perceive. You have to kind of have the right qualifications for each thing. Whereas I think there's a lot to be said for just seeing possibilities in people and developing those, whatever you see, just develop it and see how it How it goes.
See what comes. And I've been rewarded so many times by trying to do that with people that have worked with me and for me. So you don't have to stick them in a box and that's it. So yeah, I just loved it and it was a very kind of… A good place to hone my skills. And that's where I met my husband. It was sociable. We have lots of friends from there.
But it really reinforced the fact that culture is everything, really. You know, the difference between those two places was just unbelievable, really. So that was an important thing to learn, I suppose, at an early stage. And how did you end up being where you are now?

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That's a good question. Well, I suppose I got to be the head of legal where I was and having sort of reinvented myself a few times, became the head of legal there. We did a huge merger, actually. And interestingly, I probably haven't thought of this for a long time. But the culture started to change after we did the big merger. So I think that was probably, I was not quite 40, not having a midlife crisis exactly, but feeling that I could either stay another 20 years where I was, but I would probably get a bit bored.
But I knew the role, I knew the job, I knew the people, I could have done it quite easily for another 20 years, I was happy there. But I sort of felt I had something else in me. I wanted a new challenge. So I did. I just found an advert in the back of the lawyer magazine and applied for it. Actually, it wasn't anything more exciting than that, really. But again, something completely different.
But I was lucky enough to be offered the role. And it was one of those another sort of moment where the job that I kind of applied for. It didn't turn out to be the job that it ended up being, really. And I think that was partly because the company itself, the firm itself, did a big merger and completely changed. But also, they hadn't had a legal function before. And I was on my own for five years, which was, looking back now, I think I must have been mad.
It did give me the opportunity to sort of shape it and to make it what I wanted it to be. And again, I think not being too confined, I sort of wanted to do a lot of different things and make it a bit more professional, not just do the old contract here and there. I wanted it to be a professional function. I wanted them to really understand the value that we could Bring as lawyers.
So I just kind of worked my way through and made it sort of a more interesting role, but also I was lucky enough to be given really, really important and interesting work as well. So I got to know people. I think that's key. Having that visibility helped even though I'd been sort of recruited as a sort of. Jobbing solicitor, if you like, I got quite quickly into the boardroom with the senior people doing the big stuff.
And I, that's, I kind of thought, yes, that's where I feel happy. I feel comfortable here. This is where I want to be really very presumptuous, I suppose. But on the other hand, I can remember. I can remember that boardroom. It doesn't exist now. We've moved out of that building, but I can remember that boardroom. And again, that excitement of going in there and thinking, I'm here because they need me. I'm here because I've got something to offer.
And I'm here because we're doing something that is important and I'm part of it. And it was great. It was exciting. I guess that's, I would say probably overall, excitement has kept me going. You have to keep being excited, keep being, what's the word, you know, thrilled by new things. Keep searching for something that's going to get you out of bed in the morning. I've got a very low boredom threshold as well, so I kind of always looking for the next thing that's going to Spark.
Spark joy, let's say. Yeah. You've used the word lucky a few times. I've been lucky enough to. You've said a few times. Is it really luck? Well, serendipity maybe or something. I mean, I know, I know that it's not all luck. You can't be doing things if you're not capable or if you're not sort of able to do them.

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I think you make your own luck. Yes, definitely. I've seized opportunities. I've put myself forward for things that I kind of wanted to do. But as I say, in my first in-house role, I just basically did all sorts of things that I didn't know I could do, really. So you put yourself in a position, I suppose, where things happen. You have to be open as well to those opportunities and take them.
Even if they don't work out, it doesn't matter really. You can learn something and you can move on. But there is an element. There is an element of luck. I remember the senior partner in the firm I'm in now saying to me on my first day, you know, I wish you a fabulous career here, but never underestimate the power of luck. And, you know, I kind of don't because people can Give you opportunities.
You can be in the right place at the right time. You know, a lot of things that I've done now because other people have moved on and I happen to be there to fill the gap or something. So I do think serendipity plays a part, but it's also, I suppose, incumbent on you to see that opportunity and seize it. So I kind of, it's probably the two things working together, I guess.
What's been most challenging for you? Oh, the most challenging thing is learning the rules of the game, if I could put it that way. I've never been a great one for playing games as such, either proper games or, you know, I'm not really sporty. I never did that sort of thing. I don't really do board games or anything like that. But I do see a career as like a game of snakes and ladders or something.
You know you go up a little bit then this big fat snake kind of bites you and you go down a bit and you know you have to keep sort of navigating through. But I suppose when I was younger and more naive really I didn't kind of appreciate that there are rules to this game that men set. Hundreds of years ago, they all somehow know the rules of this game, but they don't kind of let us in on it somehow.
It's sort of, we have to learn them as we go along. We don't kind of just, we're not part of the club, so we don't get the board game with the rules in it. And just when you think you've cracked it, they change the rules. That's also something I found as well. The rules. Sometimes apply, but sometimes don't, and you never know when that's going to be. So I would say the most challenging thing is that I suppose as a lawyer, I have a sense of what's fair and what's right and what should happen.
And those are the things that disappoint me the most, give me the biggest knock is when something Isn't fair, you know, somebody gets a promotion, not because they deserve it, but because they know someone or they know the rules or they kind of they're part of the club or they're part of, you know, whatever. That really upsets me more than people being patronizing or horrible to me personally, if you like, that sense of things, not being fair or not being right.
I kind of get very upset about. So, yeah, I think that's the biggest challenge, actually.

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We kind of need to change the rules, I think. We either need to change the rules or we need to teach some new rules, I think. How does one learn the rules, Caryl? I don't think I have learned the rules, to be honest. I think I'm still learning them every day. So I suppose, and this is interesting too, I think I've learned what I've learned by listening a lot. I said that I was In the boardroom quite early on in my career, I listen, I watch, I use all the skills that I have, you know, some of my feminine intuition, some of my softer skills to really try and piece.
What's happening? So I think watching and learning, having some great role models too, and people who have tried to help me along, that's been key. But I think listening and watching in some ways, you have to do that. But at a certain point, you also have to speak and not just sit and listen. And that's, I think, also something I've learned that if you don't speak, You won't be heard. I know that sounds really obvious, but you kind of think, well, I'm here, I'm in the room, but if you don't really say very much or you don't kind of put your voice and your point of view forward, then how can you expect the rules to change or expect to be able to influence what's going on, really?
And I suppose that's where I am now. I sort of feel we… When I joined the workforce, as I say, there weren't many women. It was a great, exciting time, but also a very difficult and disappointing time in many ways. I think now that's moved on and we have made a huge difference. I look around me and I see so many fantastic young women joining the workforce and being great and being seen to be great, which is also good.

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But I do think that actually, almost as you get, as I've become more senior, I've realised that equality is not a numbers game. I think that's where we've kind of focused. It's about getting more women into roles. And Equality. Everyone talks about 50-50 or whatever target they have. And it's a sort of target and it's a goal and it's a numbers goal. You know, the goal is never for women to have influence.
The goal is always for women to be in the room. It's sort of like bums on seats. And I think for now… Time that for right now in today's world, we've got to move from thinking of equality as being a numbers game. Equality is about having an equal voice really. And I've been thinking a lot about that recently. How can you use your voice? How can I use my voice? How can we use our collective voice now that we maybe are in those positions to really.
Make a difference. We've kind of fought tooth and nail to climb the ladder and not step on too many snakes and to get us to where we need to be. Now is the time to start really making a difference and changing those rules and making it a game with more ladders, fewer snakes and making a difference, having an influence. I just find it extraordinary that You get to a senior position. I almost feel that it's less equal now than when I was in the middle point of my career, I suppose.
I also think it's an age thing as well. I think when you're an older woman, you have different challenges too. You know, the ones I faced when I was younger. I don't face so much now, but I face different challenges of sort of invisibility or sort of, well, you know, you're getting to the end of your career now, so we don't need to sort of pay too much attention to you. You're just kind of sitting out the last few years or a lot of jokes about women of a certain age.
You know, it used to be different sort of jokes. Now it's that kind of joke. And you just think, oh, you know, when is this going to stop? So I think there's a there's a new fight to be fought now, which is OK, we've got there. We, you know, a lot of us are in good, strong positions. It's taken us a lot of years and a lot of effort, but we're here now.
And you better, well, listen to us because we've got a lot to say. So I think that's that's where I am right now. That's the new challenge is.

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How to use the voice, how to use that in a way that can make a bigger difference, really. Oh, I love it. And so you said you've been thinking about this quite a lot, about how to use your voice and how we can use our voices collectively as women. What ideas are you coming up with? Well, that's why I need you and all the fabulous people that we meet in Aspire because.
I think it's not just one idea, it's a collective actually. I do think that there are new fights to be fought, you know, there are things and I think a lot of… The suffragettes, for example, some were quite passive, but had real things to say and made a real difference training people and, you know, equipping people. And then others were more vocal and more kind of on the front line. I think all of that is still as important now as it was then, actually.
I just think it's a slightly, you know, it's a different world. We're wearing different clothes, but we're kind of. So I think it's a mixture of finding ways to work out what, first of all, I suppose, work out what is it we need to change? What is it that's stopping boards and companies and, you know, wherever we are, wherever we find ourselves, what is it that's stopping them from listening to us?
You know, is there something that we can do? To either individually or collectively change that kind of dynamic. And I think really just equipping ourselves better, perhaps. You know, I learned sort of how to be in a boardroom just through trial and error, really, and watching and learning, as I said. There were a few fantastic people who helped me along. But I think Training, coaching, equipping people to be, to own the room, to not be like I was when I joined the workforce, kind of grateful to be there.
I think that has stayed with me a little bit actually. I was so sort of grateful to have a job that I forgot that actually they're the lucky ones. They've got me, so they're the lucky ones. And I think we need to kind of. Change that narrative a little bit as well. Not in a pompous, sort of, you know, bigging yourself up way, but in a way that you understand your value and you understand what you can contribute, either in business, life, relationships, work.
I can see it by the steely look in your eyes as you're saying it. Well, I've come this far, so I'm not going to stop now, am I? I still feel that I have a lot to contribute. And I'm also finding now that it's not just in a box, in a pigeonhole.

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There are things that, you know, things come together and you can influence all sorts of things all the time in big or small ways, but you don't have to necessarily just focus on one thing. It can be a mixture of different things. So, yeah, it's another exciting challenge, let's say. It reminds me of that 2020 Gloria Steinem quote, women should be less grateful and more rebellious. I totally agree. I totally, totally agree with that.
I think we have been a little bit passive perhaps in putting ourselves forward or, you know, making sure that we're in the right place, you know, and that we're being heard in the right way. So I definitely think we've been, we've been passive, we've been quiet. Now is the time to kind of use those voices in a good way. And yeah, come together. I mean, a force for change is something that I've been thinking about.
And that to me can mean, I personally can be a force for change, but it also means, as a collective, we can be an incredible force for change. And it's almost like a kind of, not a battle cry exactly, but there is an element of You're up against the real top guns. They know that they rule the world and they've got all the, they hold all the cards. So we have to be smart and we definitely are smart.
So, you know, let's go for it. That's my battle cry. Let's go for it. It's not exactly motivational, is it really? I think it's so amazing because we've been so focused on learning the rules of the game. We've been so focused on trying to understand the rules, trying to understand the culture, trying to understand men and adapting ourselves the best that we can. And we've done pretty damn well at it, considering that we didn't know the rules and we're not the owners of the game and we didn't create the game.
But this idea of creating a new game, a new world, being a force for change and doing it collectively. I feel like that really is the key to what you're saying, Caryl, that we can't all just try and do this individually, but to do it collectively. Yes. I think, you know, there's always In everything that you do, you're kind of better together in any walk of life. We're a sociable being. We don't function well when we're isolated and we're on our own and we feel that no one's in our corner or we become sort of introverted and a bit less somehow.
I'm very shy, actually. I know you probably don't think that, but when I was a girl, I mean, I was terribly, terribly shy. I always used to push my little sister in front of me. She was the extrovert one. I'd push her in front of me to go into any room or go into any party or whatever. I was really shy. Used to blush a lot and, you know, get redneck and all of that stuff.
But then because she was with me, I got more confident. And so, you know, you're kind of better together, really, in every walk of life. So I think the more we can share our experiences, the more we can pass on our own learnings and, you know, stories. I'm a great believer in. Storytelling actually to bringing it to life, the more we can do. It's just, you know, maybe it is all about a numbers game after all, even though I said it wasn't, but maybe numbers do matter.
And now that, you know, there are a lot of us in those positions of influence. Imagine how amazing it would be for us to get together and do something together. It's just.

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There's no end is there? There's no end to what you can do. And I think that's important really to remember that you're not on your own. There are lots of people kind of in the same boat really. So let's find each other and do something amazing. So if you were to put an ad in the back of the lawyer now, there's such a thing. It'd probably be online, wouldn't it? And it said, calling all women.
Battle cry. What would the wording be of your ad? The wording of my ad. Oh gosh. Putting me on the spot now. You know, my default is a bit of legal drafting, but no, I just think, you know, let's do it together, really. Let's, let's do it. We're here. We're here. We've, we've really kind of fought our way up the ladders, as I say, kick the snakes. And, but now what are we going to do?
You know, how do you actually Change the game. And if it's if it's not going to be now, when is it going to be really? So, yeah, I just think let's do it. Like I say, not particularly motivational, but best I can come up with. I feel like a suffragette meeting poster coming along. I think so. I think so. Yeah, definitely. I'm going to channel my inner suffragette. But even that, you see, is doing something together.
Learning from what people have done in the past, what women have gone through in the past, and how they have sort of adapted and worked their way through things, face challenges, overcome challenges. It's important. I think history binds us, doesn't it? You know, the past is really important. And if there are things that I can pass on to people coming into the workforce today, then I should do that. It's sort of an obligation almost, isn't it?
You don't just learn all of that and then die. You know, you have to kind of pass it on. And so it's partly that too. Channeling those pioneers from the early days is part of that really. So yeah, it's all kind of a big joined up circle really, isn't it? And final pieces of advice for women listening today. What would you say to them? I would say be true to yourself.

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People kind of use the word authentic. I don't know if that's entirely what I mean, but that's part of it. But I think don't let people tell you what you should be or tell you what you should do or tell you how you should do it. Carve your own path, really, I suppose. Be true to what you know you can do and what you want to do. I think that's a good thing that I learned quite early on.
People, you know. Try to put me off, but I think stick to who you are and stick to what you can do and what you want to do. If you're passionate about something, you're going to do it so much better. And if it means something to you and it's important, you're going to put your all into it. If you're doing something because someone else wants you to do it, you know, not as not as motivational, really.
So I think be true to what you want, what you can do and what you can contribute. And, you know, we need to find a way of making sure that that is heard and not just heard, but acted on as well. Thank you very much, Caryl. It's always a pleasure talking to you, Sam. And yeah, there's such a lot of inspiration out there, isn't there? So, yeah, thank you. I think we need to get around the board table of our own.
I'm thinking maybe a little more room. Absolutely. Definitely. That would, that would be awesome. Can you imagine what we could, what we could cook up in the, yes, in the Aspire boardroom. Well, anyone listening that's interested in joining us. Yeah. Rebellion is slowly but surely underway. It's coming, isn't it? It's got to. As you have said, it's got to a certain tipping point now, or it's getting to a tipping point. And there are so many of us out there that want to make a bigger difference, but maybe not quite sure how to do it, or maybe you've got a bit stuck in where they are.
So joining together to support each other and collectively being a force for change is something that I'm certainly working on and know that you are as well. You're amazing. Thank you so much. Really enjoyed it. Thank you. Reach you later, Caryl. Enjoy the rest of your day. Bye.

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