Challenge It and Try Again

Look at you in your woolly hat. Yeah, it's cold, you know. It's really cold. I'm in the room, which is a bit cold because it's to the garden. Yeah. I'm just trying to save the heater. That's why. I've got my tea already. So you're all set. Yeah. Yeah, it's ready. How's it going? Well, it should be ready with you. That's the general thing. Yeah, it's not easy. What's not easy? You will say why.
I know you will say why. It's not easy for me to be sitting and talking to you. So I should be prepared mentally, physically and tea-wise because I stopped drinking coffee. So the tea helps? Nearly, but it's good. Not like the coffee. I just stopped two days ago. It was that kind of firm decision. I have to do that. Oh, yeah? What made you stop coffee? I had too much coffee during the lockdown, too much.
Yeah. And I was unwell two days ago and I couldn't sleep because of the pain. And then I was like evaluating what I had different, what things new, you know, and then in terms of food or drink. And then I was like, I think I should stop the coffee, reduce it. or to stop it. That was while I was in that pain, within that pain, that conversation. In the morning, I decided to stop it.
So this is the third day with no coffee. Wow, congratulations. I've tried it a few times. So when you said it's hard to speak with me, is it hard to speak with me because of it's me? Is it something I could do better? Or is it because sharing your story is hard? It's not about the story, it's about the person. When you speak with a person, that's me, right? So it's not necessarily anyone.
You categorise people, and then you put whoever and whatever level, and sometimes you have to be really careful when we speak with someone, and sometimes you have to be genuine when you speak with someone, and sometimes you have to be like… really, really, really, really picky when you speak with someone. And it depends what's the context, how that someone going to look at you and process what you say. For you, so then I'll back to you.
For you, I think it's about the first meeting with you, you know, the first conversation with you, phone call, then the interview. it was Zoom or Skype. It's difficult for me to put you at what's category. Of course you're not very careful. I don't want to be very careful with you, which is good. At the same time I have to… I know where I already placed you in that kind of level of respect.
So I don't want to be… I've never been disrespectful to anybody, but I don't want really to be in any ways to that level. So a bit of careful, a bit of concern, a bit of respect and a bit of be me. You said once, when I say to you, I don't really like to read from paper. And you said, just be you. That's what I like. That's why at the same time I have to be really. comfortable and be ready where I'm sitting, you know, with my coffee, wearing what I'm wearing now.
So that's, it added to that comfort. Yeah, that's, does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Sometimes sound like, I don't know what I'm talking about. Yeah. There's nothing you could say that I would find disrespectful. Nothing. Yeah, it's, yeah.

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It's sometimes the tones, the voice, sometimes culture differences. We say that when we train others. Sometimes it could sound like disrespect, but it's not. Sometimes we have to really mean what we say and to actually give a clear message to others, which is that's I think what we should do really in general. And I want to not be disrespectful to you in any way, so will you let me know if I do?
Oh yeah, of course. I'll say that to you. I said that's kind of, it's not equal relationship, but that kind of flexible relationship, it's good as well. So it's two ways rather than one way. Why not an equal relationship? That's a really good one. Can we have an equal relationship? I don't know, is this question? Yeah, it's good. Yeah. I don't know. Some questions, sometimes you just don't know what's the answer.
I don't know. But it's flexible relationship. I think it's easier than equal relationship because sometimes we don't need to be equal. We need to understand each other, to be flexible with the relationship, to give and take rather than to be equal. So for me,

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equality sometimes not really necessary to exist. Interesting. I want to go back to something you said earlier, because I'm just remembering it now actually as well, about the very first conversation we had. And can you remember anything about that? Well, I've got a really bad memory. However, yes, I remember most of it. What's the really bad memory? I've really got a bad memory. And sometimes the short memory just… But no, yeah, I remember this.
I do definitely watch a bit of it. Do you remember, because I remember you were wanting to speak at our conference, one of our conferences in London, and then I think I told you right there and then on the phone, like, I want you to speak at our conference. And you said, OK, OK, good. And then you told me at the conference that… when I had said that on the phone that you thought it was some kind of scam.
Yeah, I remember. So, yeah, but don't trust my memory with something else, okay? Yeah, well, as I said to Mebi, when I looked up, it's the question how you register first, so how I register first. That comes from nowhere, so I can't really be certain saying someone sent it to me. And that time I had a lot of problems. There are problems when you feel like the door, all the doors, like someone locked it.
So you can't really go anywhere. So whatever you do, whatever you become really good or nice or doing good, you know, sometimes you say do good and that good gonna come back to you with a different time, different situation, but sometimes it doesn't work. So. who knows, gods, hands or whatever, I don't really care who did that. But I had really, really difficult time, really difficult time. Nothing works for me. Even I was very, very good, if I could say that, be fair with myself.
So I enrolled, I registered, I remember I did that form. And then I couldn't remember what that form, really. Then I received the email. and saying, you've been shortlisted. I said, what is this? You know, I was like, then I received the email, another email said you will have a phone call, right? That the phone call. And I was like, I'm sorry, but I don't have the phone. And I don't remember actually what was in that phone.
Could you send me a copy? So I received that copy. I was like, definitely this is not correct. So then you phoned me before I was like, it's not real because nothing works for me this year when you phone me we start talking well yeah i did like anyone gonna do so i googled who's you she sent me your name i don't know who sent me your name and i was like is this real name so i googled it i was like it looks like it sounds like a real name but it's not really definite because you can't really so you when you phone me and we had that conversation And you said you were very nice to me.
And I know you are from somewhere, not my neighbour, right? From somewhere, not from England even. And be nice with no reason. I mean, coming from nowhere, saying good things to someone was like, that's why I was like, I remember it. I remember the feeling. Yeah, I do. Yeah, sometimes I sometimes say that to others. I said, you don't know. When you say something good, you don't know who's going to receive it.
You really don't know who's really waiting for that. Maybe that someone needs you to say it. You're fine. You're okay. You're alone. You're not alone. And that voice, it could come from anywhere. And the feeling gonna… reached that person. I didn't see you that time, it was phone call. I remember I was in the other room even, that room, and I was standing. I remember my feeling, I remember me walking in the room and I went to the window, looked up to the window.
I was like, this woman, she has no idea what she's doing. And then by the end of that conversation, I said to you, I don't think I've got something to say. Even though I've achieved a lot, they challenged a lot, but that time I was totally lost. So that voice coming from who knows, from where, but it meant a lot to the other person because that person was nowhere. And that kind of, it's just funny.
I always say that voice, that magical voice, it's just magic, but we don't really know about it. We not really listen to ourselves when we say something good to others, and then how that can change people's life. Not change, are you going to give me money or are you going to give that person whatever. Changing the mood, changing that self-transformation, it was huge. I remember. I remember the feeling, and you can see it's reflected.
It means it's not easy to… It's not easy to hurt someone, and it's not easy to make that someone happy as well. It's just like what we say. You don't need to give me anything. I mean, if you called me after that or someone sent me a message saying, well, the conference is cancelled, it doesn't matter anymore. Because I lived that feeling, that time, that moment, and I felt good. That's what was matter for me.
So, yeah. That was, that was why I couldn't really believe it because it just, someone sent me something just to say to me, you got something and others maybe they will be interested to hear that something. It's like, yeah, it's because of that context that the time I was, that time, it was very, very hard. Nothing works for me.

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Yeah, I do, I do remember. Even with my short memory. I think your memory is a little better than you think. And let me tell you, from my perspective, when I was doing that call with you, and one of the things I was doing was I was shortlisting speakers for a conference we were having. And I remember speaking with you and hearing your story and thinking, wow, my god, this story is amazing.
This is really good. This story is so good. And it's going to be so interesting because she's so different. And she's got this story that's just phenomenal. And I was so impressed. And I was like, oh, god, I hope she'll do it. And so it was, for me, it was complete and utter no brainer that I wanted you to speak at the conference that we had. This no, absolute no brainer. I was excited.
I was like, Because I speak to so many people and a lot of great people, but a lot of people have very similar stories. And your story was so unique. And I loved it so much that I was quite shocked when you were like, well, you really want me? I don't have anything to say. I thought, what? Are you completely and utterly mad? I mean, your story is phenomenal. Take us through your story a little bit, whatever you're…

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comfortable with, but don't be too fast, all right? Take us back to where you were born and what it was like and how you managed to get yourself to the UK. I wanna talk about that because I think it's a big and important story. Yeah, I call myself self-made person, even self-made girl. in that time. So I was born in Ethiopia. My mum was born there as well. So two or three generations, we were there.
And then we moved to Yemen. So we are from, my family is from Yemen. I don't know where I am from, to be honest. So, and then they moved to Yemen when I was two years. My mum was the head of the family, and her mum was the head of the family before, so they were very strong women. But life, it was very difficult for them, moving from a place to another place.
My mum never seen or visited Yemen before, so she moved to that place with her mum. Her mum passed away. And then my mum, I don't think so, even she lived for 10 years in that city we moved to. It was very hard for her. And then she got cancer. And during that time, she still was the head of the family. My dad actually left her and he went to the village, got another woman, younger woman.
So she was actually dealing with everything. A new woman in a new place, or a woman in a new place, a new culture, everything. But she survived. She looked after her kids. And she passed away when I was around maybe seven or eight. Then I don't remember that much about her. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not good really. But I remember things. I remember the feeling. I remember when she went to Egypt to do that treatment, cancer treatment, chemotherapy things, when she came back as well.
It was hard, that was really, really hard because everything collapsed after that. We were three daughters, so three girls. The second one, the first one, she was already married to the village that she went to the village.

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As well, they're all born in Ethiopia. The second one, I think my brother's not allowed her to finish the school. So she got married when she was at the school. It's easier for them, you know. So I insist to finish the school. So I've refused everything. And I don't know why, but I was really angry. Angry and very quiet, very, very quiet. I was very quiet because I'm still very quiet anyway.
But it was that, I mean, a girl want to survive, want to do something different, but still a girl, you know. But I was very in reading. So I love read, I loved reading. So I used to read anything, anything available. in my brother's house when I moved to another brother. So whatever they've got, I used to read it. At the school, I was very, very quiet, and intelligent at the same time, but very quiet.
So I used to use the library there. So again, all that reading things. I read nearly most of Charles Dickens, Agatha Christie, Victor Hugo's, the Greek philosophy. I read all that when I was at school. I used to live within the books, so my life, it was inside those books. And I used to imagine how I want to live, even though the real life, it wasn't. It was totally different. But I was like that.
I was very quiet, but inside my books. I used to write diaries. If I want to say anything to anyone, I can't. I'm not brave enough to say anything. So I used to write it, any conversation between me and anyone. I was in a culture or a society oppressing women and girls. They've got no voice. They've got, I'm not going to say limited freedom, but no freedom. So there's no access to anything.
So you have to be 100%. following what's your brother saying or what's your father. So for me, no father, no mother. So it was brothers. So blindly, you have to be follower. With the books, that's different. There's nothing says follower. So to be follower and not, it means to be quite. Because if you argue, you will be beaten. That's what used to happen to us or me as well. It makes me quiet as well.
So if I say something, I may be punished. So I created that life out of those books. And then I refused to leave the school. And then after that, I moved from a city to another city. I refused to wear niqab. So we were all wearing niqab. My sisters, all the family. I was wearing hijab, you know, just covering my hair. I refused to wear a niqab. When they say, oh, look, look at you, you're a woman.
I was at the school. Well, why not? You're not covering your face. I said, I'm not going to cover, I can't breathe. So I refused that. That was, I think, the second thing. So school, finishing school, that was the first challenge. Wearing a niqab and refusing to wear a niqab, that was the second one.

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And then I moved to another city to go to the university. That was the third challenge because no one from my family went to the university. So how are you going to go? So the main things for limiting me to go or limiting any girls to go is the financial support. Who's going to pay for you? Because our school, you know, we're studying, you have to pay for everything. So who's going to pay for you?
That was the main challenge as well. I worked before the university and I saved some money. I got some things from my mum as well. She left us something. So I said I would pay for myself. So it's no way you're going to pay for yourself because you can't work. No one from my family went out and worked. So that's another thing. So I went, I started working. And the second year to the new city, I enrolled at the university.
And then I got a job, full-time job, the second year, full-time job. We don't have part-time school in Yemen. Full-time job means more money, but means no university. But at the same time, it means the money for the university. So I was enrolled full-time, but at the same time I used to go to my work in the early morning. At lunchtime I used to go to the university and then after that lunchtime I'd go back to my work and at the end I used to go and take all the, you know, whatever the books, whatever the materials I need to read.
So I used to study at night. So I was doing that for the four years. I did very good, very, very good. I did very good. Some of the topic I had, excellent first grade. At the same time, I had my first car to help me with the transport because I was not really, because I was very quiet, I was very shy and I was, of course, not that confident. I was really, really can't really.
So having a car, it was like safer for me rather than the transport. I used to be not trusting men. I don't till now. I really need to put lines, questions if I'm going to trust men. And then I decided to buy a car. So I had my first car. That was another boom to my family. It was, you crazy, you mad, you're going to drive.

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I was like… How did you deal with that? I mean, you're the first woman to do this in your family and you… From the books. From the books, because the books gave you this place where you could… Yeah. I created my own life within the books. I created everything. I used to have… I used to… If I'm going to tell you, when I drive here… I went last year to Scotland, right?
I drove to there. I drove all around the country. If I tell you… Some people, they don't really believe me, I don't know why. I was driving exactly the same road when I was reading the books, when I was in Yemen in my school. Exactly this, sometimes I just close my eyes and stop. Oh, okay. I stop, I stop. When you were reading the books, you could see this, you imagined the road and then you were in the road?
Yeah. Wow. No, believe me when I say that. I said, I swear to God, I was driving this way. I believe you. You visualised it. You could see… Take us in the books. What did you see in the books? What was the life that you were imagining? The weather, the green. I used to say, when I used to read the books when I was little, I used to say, if I've got a car…
You know, at that time, there's no way you think about a car. When I got a car, I would put a fuel in my car, get my money and drive around. That's exactly what I do. How could you think that? Because no one else had cars. No women had cars. No, not money even. Only to think about a car. Not money even. We don't have our own money. I'm driving in England, in Europe.
I mean, how? I love it. Yeah, I went once with some friend here. We drove to… I said to them, there's a nice place in Scarborough. There's a nice cafe there. So sometimes when I'm… See, that's another thing. If I'm fancy anything, I will drive and go and get it. I don't wait for anyone to give it to me. I don't want to say to me, I wish. No, I will work and go and get it.
So if I really want that fish and chips from Scarborough, I will go now and get and eat it there. I don't wait for anyone. So how did you… So you're working full-time, you're studying full-time.

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you pay for yourself, you get your degree, you have a car, then what happens? Jobs. I moved from jobs to another. People used to see me like clever girls. I was so bright with my quietness, so they don't really believe that I could think like that. And then I moved from job to another job, which is better, better, better all the time and allowed me to work with men. And don't do that, we've got men only, women only.
I've become like working with men in a closed space. Start travelling. Part of my work, that's never happened before. My name was there, here and there. And remember my brother said to me, ah, where you been? I said, I was in Lebanon. He said, I heard that. I said, yeah, I was in Lebanon. I was doing something there. He said, I can't believe it. I heard it from some people. And they said, your sister went there, part of her job.
He said, I can't believe it. I said, why not? I said, did they say to you I was doing something wrong? They said, no. I said, okay, that's what you should think about. You should be proud of me because I'm doing really good. And was he? Yes. There's nothing against, I'm not shaming anyone. And I know, well, okay, see, that's another, my own philosophy of freedom. Yes, I love freedom, but at the same time, I draw lines for myself.
I don't want to harm any other girls. I don't want to be a bad example to them. Don't do that. You will be like Ibtissam, and I don't want that. I don't want anyone to remember me and the other generation said, be like Ibtissam and see what she did. That's what I want. I know my own. I'm not talking about anyone's freedom limit. My own lines, it's already, I do that kind of drawing.
So I know exactly what I want from life, from people, the type of relationship with others. I draw those lines myself. So I'm alone, I'm alone, creating my own life. This is how it is.

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So then, yeah, I moved to a place, to another place. I had very good jobs, very good incomes. I've been… That's the bad… The huge challenge happened to me. I couldn't go drive to my village to see my sister or to go to my, you know, to go to my family to see them because I was not allowed to drive to the village. There's not a lot for women to drive to there.
Didn't you tell me one time, I remember you telling me your car was red, is that right? Yeah. I can just imagine you in this red car and because I've always had red cars, I love red cars. It was a 4×4, yeah. Okay, I can just imagine you, this 4×4 red car. Now tell me, I remember you telling me one time that you did drive to the village. Yeah, that was the village when I challenged them.
Tell us about that story. It was, the one thing was, which I couldn't really challenge it, I don't know why it was, I couldn't, but I did. They say, okay, you do whatever you want in the city, but you're not allowed to drive to the village, right? So I was actually paying that for years, right? Then how it is, I used to drive my car with my nephew or whatever. younger than me, of course, till to reach certain points, which is around an hour, 45 minutes from our village.
And then I have to stop there. I remember it was the gas station, the petrol station. And then we will swap, the driver will swap. And then he will drive me by my car to my, you know, to the village, to my father's house. Right? So it was that And I have to cover my face as well. I have to wear the niqab as well. So that was the condition. It was like that many years.
And then once, I was like, gosh, they're all old and new. I drive car, all of them. So why not there? So I once was with one of my, I think it was my nephew or someone. And again, I dropped there with him. And then he said, okay, I said, why? He said, we need to swap driver. I said, well, are you serious? He said, yeah. You know, because we've been doing it for years.
Yeah. I said, okay, get out of my car. He said, why? I said, you are ashamed being with me and you've been with me from this, you know, three hours. He said, no, no, no. But you know, I said, okay, get out of my car and don't even talk to me anymore. He said, and then what are you going to do? I said, I will drive myself. So he said, you know, well, I said, no, if you want to be with me, so you will stay here.
If not, just get yourself, if you don't want anyone to [unclear]. He was like in out and he said, okay, don't want you to go alone. I said, okay. So I drove the car. It was, that was the first one. And we live in a big heart, you know, it's a mountain. mountain things, you know, it's a bit higher. And then it's very rough, you know, that's why we have four by four.
So I drove to the top, to the top, to the top. And because we are a tribe, you know, this village, I'm a member of this head of the tribes. And then I parked my car on the top where the whole village is just down there. So anyone from everywhere is going to see my car, because red and Jeep, you know, four by four. Then I arrived there and my sister just went down.
Ibtissam, I said, yes. She said, well done. I'm really proud of you. I said, what? Ellie, she said that? Oh, that's good. She said, you know what? I'm really proud of you. I was like. How come my sister, because I know my sister, she's, but they can't, they can't do anything. So we had this conversation. It was very quick visit and her husband, which is the leader of the tribe, came with his guards, you know, with their guns and things.
And he arrived and he saw my car. I think someone called him and he saw my car and me outside, no niqab. And he was like, okay, hi, how are you? What are you doing? I said, I'm fine. Are you staying? No, no, no. I just come to say hi and leave it. And he said, oh, boy, you know, the guards drive your auntie down to the main road. Who drive you to here?
I said, and my sister said, Ibtissam. Oh, okay. Okay, go and drive her down. My sister said, no, she can. She can drive herself. And he said, no, no, no, you know, it's dangerous. I said, no, it's not dangerous. My car is four by four. So why is it dangerous? And he looked at me, I don't know what happened to you and him and my sister after that, I had no idea.
But then he said, okay. And then I drove down and that's it, I broke all the rules. How did it feel as you were driving away? Do you know something said claim in your space? You know this phrase that was that? I created the spaces and I claimed it. It's my own space, my own car. I'm not harming anybody, right? So why not? But I don't know why that time, maybe I was fed up, maybe I was already, you know, when you are confident that we build that confidence for years, you just don't really bother.
Sometimes we don't really bother what's the result will be the impact. We just do it because you know it's right, the right time. sometimes it's the right time the right time what they say the right time yeah the right time the right action yeah it was my turn that time so if it is my right time i shouldn't actually wait for it if i believe this is my right time i shouldn't believe to wait for it things went very good things went very very very very good scary good i was really scary because my brain wants to be like

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I don't know how we used to work, to be honest. I moved to a job, to another job, job. My income was, like, really, really good. I worked very, very, very hard. Very hard. And how did you end up in England? And I lost all that. Yeah. Yeah. I lost all that. How did you lose it? This is life's philosophy, you know. When life decided to stop giving you, it will stop.
You'll get any reason, all the reasons, to make it hard for you, even if you work massively harder. But sometimes this superpower can come from nowhere and will change your life. I think if I was given that life, I would not be really that sad because I didn't really work for it. But because I worked for it very hard, losing it, it was massively, massively hard. I said, no, I don't think so.
I'm recovered from it. But anyway, because I built that strength, I think, within me, I was like, okay, let's try again. Let's try to create another life again. Would you show what happened that made you… No, no, no. It was… I lost… I resigned from my job. No one kicked me out from my job. I resigned. And I resigned from my job and I stayed home for about a year with no job.
And I started doing voluntary work because I had really, really bad experience there. I went through these kind… I was financial manager, by the way. I was dealing with money. I was the only woman in that position as well in the whole country at that time. I was dealing with millions of dollars and millions of local currencies. I scared some people, if this is the right or the correct phrase I could use, I scared some.
And for them, I should be with them, not independent. Or if I'm not with them, And if I'm independent, it means I'm against them. So these kind of corruption things, it's not a joke. When they say corrupted system, corrupted people, that's not a joke. It means death or life. You don't have a choice. I offered a lot in terms of materials, things, you know, a house or… Cars, travelling, money, promotion, everything.
But I decided, no, it was difficult, it was hard. It was to lose everything or to accept. If you accept it, you can't go back. And I've seen many people went through it and they didn't come back. And I don't want that. I didn't really, I reject it. Yes, that's when I said that my own philosophy of freedom. I've got those lines. Yes, I was a young girl, lonely, alone. She needed to create her life.
She really wanted to do something, change her life, change others' life. But I wasn't greedy at all. And I'm not till now. I don't really like that relationship with money, with the money going to control me. I don't really like this relationship. I want the money to support me. and me creating the money to support myself i don't like the money to play the main role to control me or drive me that was that from the beginning maybe this is from the book as well i don't know so when i when i was in that position yes i used to earn a lot of money but i worked very very hard to get it no one give it to me but if you're going to give me more it means you need more or you want more if you If they just touch that nerve on people, that's how they control them.
And I didn't really like anyone to control me. If I am that easy person to be controlled, why I left my family? Easily, you know, if I am that easy person to be controlled, I will stay with my family and get married, get kids, and that's it. It was a difficult decision. Especially, I used to travel anywhere because of that job. If I want to get anywhere, the invitation represented my job, that it was through the job.
So it means I'm limiting myself with everything. I try to be, what they call it, to be clean, you know, from these corruption things. I tried my best. The cost was to stay at home and not to do anything and not to find any other jobs. Because whatever the job I used to apply for, I couldn't get it. Because those people, they've got their hands everywhere. And I couldn't get a job.
So I started volunteering. I offered some jobs, very, very, very good jobs, but with a condition as well. So I refused it. I used to use my own saving money. And then it was really hard. Even I resigned, right? But my salary was still coming to me, by the way. So they said maybe she's tired. Maybe, you know, she's under pressure, she's tired. Even I was at home, the cashier used to knock my door and give me my salary by hand.
Wow, there's a saying here called golden handcuffs. What is that? Golden handcuffs. It's like when you have this money, but it keeps you under control. It keeps you tied to something. And so you had worked so hard for this job, and it was giving you so many things, and the first woman to do this, and yet it went against your values. And the corruption… it was too much for you and you ended up resigning and then you ended up not being able to get another job because of the people that were involved in this initial job for you.
And then tell me the story of how did you decide to go to England? How did you get to England? Yeah, this is when life playing that funny role in our life when it just give you something and take a lot, right?

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So I came before part of my job. I was working with the government in a very high level. And I came before I went to Canada, to the USA, to many places, to Switzerland, to Italy, to many places. It wasn't really easy. And the visas, my passport was full of visas. Some of them still open. The UK visas were multi and open. So travelling wasn't really a big issue for me because I've got visas already.
I came to England before, part of my work, and I was treated in a very, really good way. And then I went back and respectfully, respectfully, the ambassador was a lady. She gave me the first visa and the second visa. So she treated me in a very good level of respect because of my job, of course. So deciding to travel, it wasn't really that decision. I didn't really decide to escape to that level.
Because escaping means, I mean, it's not easy. You live in everything, not just the money, not just the job. You lived in your life, memory, friends, anyone you had a relationship with. I mean, it's not easy. Escaping maybe, maybe easy, easy, easy term, but it's not as it sounds. So it wasn't, that escaping, it wasn't really in my dictionary that time. So when I decided to leave, I will say I decided to leave, it was a break, another break.
Before that, when I was doing my voluntary work, I signed another contract with another international agency. So I was a trainer and I worked under that contract and I earned some good money as well that time. As a freelancer, so I was recommended by some friends as well. And then I was like, I really need a break, what to do next? And then visa's still valid, you know, still open and valid.
At the same times, I had many issues happen to me. I returned my cars as well. I kept only my, I call it my mum's car because it was her money, you know. My own car, I call it my mum's car. But I returned the government's car. I used to have another big four by four car. I returned everything to the minister, the minister, ministry of something. And people think like, why are you returning all this?
I say, because it's not mine. I've got my own and this is not mine. I rejected many things and I was under kind of control, if you know when the government control people, that kind of observation, monitoring you, where you go, how to wear, even sometimes in the street, when I used to drive to some streets. I see people, like, waving, saying, hi, Ibtissam. I was like, who's these people, you know?
When I used to arrive to the airport and then driving from the airport to my house, I get phone calls saying, oh, welcome back. I was like, I was really, really under that control. And I wasn't really about to leave them because I couldn't really leave them. So they think I was taking a break. And then I will go back because I'm going to be running out of my money anyway. You know, when you run out of the money, you accept anything.
With some people, of course. But I didn't. I was like, I can live with very limited things. Anyway, I decided to leave. I mean, to go out for break. I call it break. No one in my family knew where I'm going. I didn't check. that much. I took only small suitcase. The one I used to go with my own work trips or with my job, small one. No one actually, even my house and my family, my relative, no one knew about it.
Only one friend, she knew it. She said, Ibtissam, you have to be safe and you should leave. Were you in fear of your life? It was that level, yeah. Only one friend, she knew all the details, which is not comfortable, even details to share. She knew something happened to me and she was the only person till now, received a phone call from me and I said, are you home? She said, yes.
I said, I really want to talk and I don't want to, are you alone? She said, we can go to my room, but I'm with my family. I said, no, I want you to be alone. So she said, yeah, you can come now. So I went directly to her and I was really shaking and I shared with her what happened to me. And she said to me, Ibtissam, you're done. I was, you can't say that.
She said, and you knew it, you're so clever. And I'm telling you, you're done. I said, okay, what I should do? She said, I don't know. So we have no idea what we should do. And I said, okay, just keep this between me and you. So you were under surveillance and you were in fear of your life and then something happened? Yeah and then there were no way out really with me being there because I was involved with many things you know I was involved with this kind of my past relationship it was still there my work my yeah my…
Sometimes I feel like we shouldn't be clever anyway. We shouldn't be thinking beyond the thinking, because that gives people indication that you know beyond what you should know. Sometimes there should be a limit. I don't believe in that, but sometimes there should be a limit, because others can use this, can use it against you, and which they did, many others. The idea was to go for a break and keep in touch with my friend and monitor everything and see what can happen next.
So I was empty-handed really. Empty-handed in terms of what I have built because it was all collapsed. I feel it's funny really because this life is really sometimes…

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It's playing a game with us. Sometimes you should be really patient to understand that game to continue or just to leave or to stop. I don't really like to stop. I like to play with life and see where I'm going to go. And clever you do. So you arrived in England as a refugee? No, no, no, no. I came with my visit, with my visa. You came with your visa, I got that one correct, and you, where did you end up?
You ended up in… I ended up as a refugee, but I came as someone with my visa, with my money, everything. I didn't even plan to stay. So the first week, second week, first month, second month, because I arrived, I remember I arrived, I left Yemen at 13th of December 2004, and I arrived to Manchester. I left at 11, arrived at 12, 12-12 2004. I remember the coach driving me and I stayed using my own money.
The first month, second month, third month, I started to be running out of the money. Things went very, very bad back home. because I left that channel with my friend and one of my, I remember one of my nephew was just observing things. So I used to get updated from there and no one knew I'm here. They thought I am here for course. You know, I say to them, I registered for the training course.
So no one knew, even my sisters. It was only me and these two. Then I went, I reached to that level. There's no way out. again. It was so sad to face that, that reality. I have to start again, from again, nowhere. My English was very entry one. It means hi, how are you, you know, it was that kind of level. What was that when you arrived and you couldn't communicate? No, no.
Do you remember what you did at the conference when I asked you that question? Do it again, go on. Do again what you did in the conference when I asked you that question. How was it for you? How did you communicate? What was it like for you when you're not speaking much English? Yeah, I just get this feeling that it was when you're lost, when you are in a room and someone is speaking to you in another language and you don't know anything, or using sign language and you don't understand it or something, you're like blind, deaf, lost.
I mean, the meaning of lost means a lot. I remember when you asked me that day, I didn't know really how to explain it because it's difficult to explain the meaning of lost. And then when it came to me, I said to you, can I do something? You know, my brain works faster than me, you know, sometimes it just works by itself. And I used that by speaking, you know, speaking to everybody in the room.
It was a huge room. I looked at it like, and I spoke in a different language. And I looked at everybody in the room and I was like, can you just, anyone tell me what, what's that feeling? And I heard, heard terms and I had people talking words, you know, the words from here and there. All of them with that amount of words, they tried to answer your question. What was that, what was, what was your feeling?
I don't remember what they said, but they said a lot. I mean, how I feel, how you feel when you are in the middle of the desert, we've got nothing and you've got no compass, you've got nothing. Where you gonna go? Left, right, straight, back. It was very, very tough. It's not just the experience. It was tough because I'm going to start again. I'm not that young girl going to explore that unknown life and jump into whatever.
It was a bit, you know, mature woman now, you know, work experience and life experience. How am I going to go for it again? But I found myself adopting that kind of girls thinking back again. OK, let me go for it. The first decision was…

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So my friend said, it's difficult, try to stay more. And I can't stay more because, you know, after six months you can't, you have to go out and back. And I got this feeling, I think I should go to the home office and say, this has happened to me. Not for them to give me the, you know, when you apply and you become, you apply, it's a system, right? So we become asylum seeker. then a refugee status, then a citizen.
I wasn't actually planning to be a citizen. I was planning to be legal, and I have my status to be legal, staying in the country, till I observe and see what can happen back home, because I'm still not giving up. So that was that decision. What if they're going to refuse you? I said, I don't know. I don't really to wait for that if. So I went to the Home Office. And, oh my God, they treated me in full respect.
I couldn't believe that. I heard a lot of her bad stories, by the way. Mine was, I think, fairly, it was perfect. The way how they treated me, the way how they looked at my passport. I remember this lady said to me, is that a fake passport? Is it a fake? You've got only one page left. The page is full of stamps, full of visas. She said, yeah, this is why I'm asking.
I said, no, it shouldn't be fake. It was that, you know, she was so nice, can't believe it. I had really good interview, really, really good interview. That's when my life started and I felt like I should learn the language. But I trust again. I trust people. I was still soft trusting people because they are in England, you know, they are in Europe, so they are different. But people are people. We should believe in that.
Whatever they are, people are people. I did that mistake. I trust many people and they hurt me badly again.

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I lost my trust again. It was a very tough experience. And again, I found my way by myself. You're such a pioneer. I'm interrupting you, but I'm remembering a story you told me. And I want to bring you back to this a second. So you arrive in England, you go to a very a community, a very strong Muslim community where you were telling me that it's very much about the culture, your culture.
And, but you said, do you remember what you were telling me? So I keep asking you to remember things in my memory, but if you can remember, you were telling me, I always think about this, where there was a bridge. And you said that you could, you said there was your community and then there was a bridge and then there was things happening on the other side of the bridge and you would look and you'd say, okay, did I get across the bridge?
Yeah, exactly. Tell us that story. Yeah, that's the trouble, right? So I've got the, I had the feeling, but not anymore, right? I already grew up. So I had that feeling. To feel safe or safer in a new place, you have to be with people you know. I mean, obviously, right? rather than you go naked somewhere else. So you should be close to someone warm, right? So that's what I did. I mean, logically.
So also my community will be the warmer place, of course, you know, you don't really need to struggle with the language, with the food, you know, halal or whatever foods, everything available. So you don't have really to struggle, which is true. They speak the language, the groceries, everything in Arabic, you know, people speaking Arabic things. Even if you struggle with the language, with accessing other services, they provide you the interpreter. So you're not struggling really.
That was my safety things. You know, you look for the safety things. I remember when the home office asked me where you want to move, because that's, they don't ask this question. I said, this is a Yemeni community, Muslim community. It would be better for me to go there. So that was my own wish, right? Sometimes you just do the wish and it went wrong. So he was there, and I started my life there, and it was a wrong decision.
I started volunteering, waiting for my home office decision, started volunteering, teaching Arabic and Quran, because I thought, please and Allah are going to reward me. That's what the book said, you know? So I did all of that. But it went wrong because that patriarchy system and patriarchy thought, people protect from there to here. It doesn't matter they are in England, doesn't matter they are in Europe, doesn't matter they are in the USA.
That thought, that belief within them, that men and women, women better than men, women clever than men, brighter than men, that's still there until today is still there. That was, I think, the things I didn't really realize from the beginning. Being alone, being, you don't have no family, you have no man, you know what I mean, you have no man with you, puts a huge question mark on your life. I missed that all because I came from a very different background.
I was well educated, I was very open-minded, traveled. had many friends in a very good position, academic, everything. And I arrived to England backward rather than forward. I thought I'm going to move forward in England. I mean, developing what I have, not losing what I have. But he was going backwards. Then I end up being reported as a bad experience.

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They reported me in the same centre I was working with. They asked me to review some work, internal work, as I used to be an accountant, you know, working in finance. So I did all that, I signed all the paper, you know, thinking I'm helping the community or that centre, whatever. So they reported me. I've become a bit popular, if you like, a bit, like, known. And then I find myself in that interview. with an English woman, white English woman, looks aggressive with a tattoo full of her face or head.
I don't remember that details. And I looked at her, you know, the woman came from that background. They know nothing about tattoos. They've got nothing about others beliefs and culture. They are against us. You don't need to question it, right? That was in my head. So I thought, I'm done. I have no idea why I'm here and I'm done with this woman. I wish I know her. I will kiss her. I say to her, I give her a hug.
She was so aggressive, by the way. But we ended up, she said to me, I said to her, I'm not, I can't be that person, they reported me. And I showed her my paper, you know, showed her who I am. And then she said, wait, wait, wait, wait. And then she changed the tone, she changed the conversation and said to me, you know what? I think because you are a woman, think about it and find your way.
And trust me, I trust you, you are clever. Don't trouble. I said, I don't know, I'm safe. She said, you're not. Think about it again. So she took me out of all that accusation. She helped me a lot. I have no idea what she, that I give her huge respect. You can't judge the book by its cover. You can't judge the people by how they look. That's what I say to you.
When you found me, that's the feeling. That voice coming from who knows where doesn't know me. And then you talk to me to that level with that tone and expressing your own feeling towards what I said, how I should judge you. who you to judge you, who me to judge you. It was that. It was that. Did she inspire you to… She changed my life, not inspiring me. She changed my life.
She made you cross the bridge. She said to me, you know, sometimes you don't need to think for people. Just let them think for themselves. That's what she said to me. When I went back, I resigned. I'm out. I don't know what I'm going to do next, but again, I'm out. This is not me. This is not Ibtissam, no way. And then even when I used to have my first car here, I've never crossed that bridge, by the way, because I don't know what's after that bridge.
You know what? After that bridge, the town, it's a centre, the city centre. I've never approached that level. So then went back. decided again, you know, my own calculation, decided again, I'm gonna struggle, I have no money again, don't speak the language, I will leave my comfort zone to nowhere again. But what it means, nothing, you know, for someone like me, it means I have to try again. It could work, it could not.
So I left, I said, I'm gonna go to the town, explore it myself, find my way.

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and it started again. So I did that. And then once I was on the bus, right? And there's one lady who used to volunteer with me in that place, that Islamic center. And she said, oh, I didn't see you for long. And I said, what are you doing now? I said, volunteering sometimes, you know, part-time. Say where? I said, the church. What? You know, that was in the bus, you know. What? from the Islamic center to the church.
I said, no, I wasn't praying at the Islamic center. I'm not praying now at the church. I'm doing voluntary work. And this is the only way I'm going to practice English and I will improve myself and understand those people's culture because I know nothing about them. So are you sure? Are you sure you're doing that? I said, yeah, I'm sure I'm doing that. So I start volunteering. And a Christian church. So you live in this tight community and you go there because you, logically it's a good idea.
And then you see that every day you see this bridge and this bridge is a bridge that goes into the town centre. The town centre, yeah. But you've never gone across the bridge. No. And then you have this experience with this woman, again another woman, who's these angels that keep coming to you. because you are one too, and you just need to realize that, because you're going to give so many women inspiration as they hear this podcast.
And then you decide to go across the bridge. And so you, again, another bridge you're crossing, and you're starting again, you keep saying, I'm starting again. This is life, isn't it? This is life. But you're so rebellious, I love this. Like, you go and you, okay, now I'm going to work in a Christian church. See, sometimes we create the boundaries. we create the boundaries, and sometimes we help people to create it around us.
And then we believe it, and it's not there. So it's not there. If we not explore it ourselves, I'm not saying risk yourself. Well, I said I'm not a risky person, but it's not risking yourself, but at least you do what you think is the best. If you fail, like my sister used to say to me, if you fail, you're clever enough. Go for it. If you, if you succeed, that's yours.
If you're going to challenge some things, what can happen? Try again. I used to phone her. I said, you know, I really want to ask you about something. I need your advice. He said, are you listening to yourself? It's you. You're not Hannah. You're not me. It's you. Go for it. Try again. I mean, this is what we should tell ourselves. We should tell ourselves. What can happen? Something's not going to cost you your life.
You're not doing something wrong. I'm not harming anyone. I'm not harming myself. I'm not doing anything illegal. I'm just trying to create the better me for tomorrow. And I deserve it. I deserve to live happily. I deserve to be good. I deserve to be respected. Why not? And you've created this life where you have a PhD.

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That's going to be a whole other podcast, I think. You start learning the language. You speak, you write, you have your own business. Now, tell us a little bit about what you do now. Yes. I mean, to understand yourself and to understand people, to create your new life, you need to understand the environment around you. By being myself, engaging with other people, going… listening to them and let them listen to me rather than listen about me, right?
So it's different. My challenge was the language. It's a huge challenge. It's not easy, by the way. And I don't think anyone's going to say it's easy. An academic language, that's just massively difficult. I've never been in English school or studied anything before. It was the volunteering, going to these ESOL classes, the community classes, and doing a bit here and there, reading my love, you know, love reading. But I can't go to the university because I don't have money.
At the same times, I don't speak the language, but I love studying. So I went back to the school. which is entry level, entry level two, which is, that's a huge achievement after my voluntary work. Then entry three, then level one, then level two, then GCSE English literature, and then higher education certificate, women's studies, and then master degree. That was, wow, you know, and I paid for my own education. I worked and I paid for my own education.
Of course you did. These people saying people come here to claim benefit. I worked and I paid for my own education, right? Don't wait for people to give you, to feed you, if you can feed yourself. No one fed me before. So I was working, studying, loving studying. And my first year at education, this lovely… academic, white, academic, classy women, and said to everyone in the school, in the class, what you want to be, that's first day of their MA.
I'm very shy, by the way, very, very shy, still, which is good sometimes. And asking, what do you want, what you want to be, what you want to do next, what do you want? And she came to me, what do you want to be next, to do next? I said, I want to do my PhD. She just looked up and down. What does this crazy young woman want to do? She can't even speak English.
And she said, I don't think so. If anyone's going to say it, not you. That was… Well, you proved her wrong. That was… No, that was another drive. Sometimes you need people to challenge you. And it's a message, by the way. We can't really take it as a negative. Yes, of course it hurts. But… That's how you just, you know, you know when you blend something, when you just get the flavour of the fruit, you just mix it together and you get this smoothie.
That's exactly what the experience should do to us. It was hard, but she drove me to that direction, challenging her and myself. And I spent days, nights, and I'm telling you, nights and days at the library. No, this is not a phrase. It's night and days, 24 hours, 16, 17 hours, not moving from that library, from my corner, till I developed my understanding. I said to them, I'm very clever, but I can't really express myself.
I spent days, hours, continuously to learn to say something worth it. I proved her. Not wrong. I proved to her it was good for her to challenge someone like me. And she said that in front of everybody. Until two years ago, she said, I'm still really proud of you, Ibtissam. That's what we wanted. So that's when I decided I couldn't find a job again.

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We created this women's project based on our own experience as refugees and asylum-seeking women. I believe if I want to do charity work and I don't have money, I will do it by my own knowledge, by sharing my own knowledge and experience with others. That could be what they want. They don't want my money. That could help them. So we created this project, the Women's Project for Refugee and Asylum-Seeking Women. Just to share with them, you're worth it.
You've got something. You can grow out of these struggles. And we are in it together because we've been in that system. We know how difficult. It's not necessarily for others to understand us. We need to accept it and understand ourselves. We did good. Very, very good. Just by doing something very simple. You're new to this country. You need to know your rights. Because we may have no right back home. Here, they've got a lot.
They're not going to offer it to you. You have to look for it. So that's the Women's Project. We've been doing it for the last 10 years. Very respected project. We're doing amazingly well now during the lockdown as well, supporting our women.

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And then I decided to be me again, you know, to do something to get me income, a good income, if you like. And I come with this idea again, based on my own experience. Of course, it was another challenge, another massive challenge. And I used my saving money again. It was really challenging. My wow, you know, back me again. It was my wow moment when I decided to go to this international exhibition in the Gulf States.
But I already registered my business. I already signed contracts with college and universities, with other services. Got my big banner, you know, and I… went to buy you know from John Lewis this really nice clothes and you know I was like and then I went there in this huge international global exhibition and under the UK section I don't know if people like me you know I like for dual eyes and things you know under the UK section you've got the USA section and then the other side you've got the Cyprus and those countries right And I was under this UK section and flag.
Me with that banner. And this the UK, the USA section with these big universities. I mean, I was sitting like that and people coming to me asking me questions, you know, about their life in the UK and studying in the UK. People preferred me because I speak Arabic. And the builds relationship, friendship there as well. People invited me to lunch, to dinner. Honestly.

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It's just another story. We need to have you back for many, many more stories, I think. You talked about wow. Well, you are a wow. And I'm so grateful that you did this with me today. And I'm so grateful that you shared all your stories and there's so much… Hence from here, there is life. It's your life, but your life is… It's got to be a book or a movie, I think.
It's so… fascinating and your stories are so phenomenal. I loved when you said don't judge a book by its cover and you had this woman in front of you and you made your own judgments about her and you realized that we all do that and yet we can't judge books by their cover and there are so many amazing women particularly that have come into your life. I mean you are one of the amazing women that have come into my life and I'm very grateful for that and I'm very grateful that you spoke at our conference and I'm even more happy that you've done this podcast with me and I can't wait to get it out there to the world and I think many women whether they're refugee or asylum women or other women are going to be so inspired and so impressed by you and find so much commonality that it's going to help them to cross their bridge into the town. and you have done it alone and you've done such a great job of it but I want you to know that you're not alone and there's many many like you many many like you and you and I are from completely different places and have completely different stories and we look different and we sound different yet I feel like we're the same in some ways you're my sister I'm your sister And if I was there with you right now in England, I would be putting the kettle on and we would be having another cup of tea, PG Tips and probably or something Tetley.
I miss that. And we would be sitting there and we would talk all day and all night and all day and all night. And we would be a very, very, very long podcast though, no? Yeah. So I'm so grateful. Any final words? What do you want to say to finish off? I want to say it. I mean, the belief should come from them. We have to believe in ourselves. We have to believe we deserve every good thing.
Yeah, life is not fair for many people, you know, but life loves that kind of challenging people. They don't like these lazy people waiting for things, I think. I think life got a lot for all of us, but we need to find our way and trust ourselves and just go for it. What can happen, like my sister said? Nothing. Just challenge it. Try again. Just challenge it and try again. Thank you so much.

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