Go Lilly in Your Pajamas, Just Chillin

Hello? Oh, I can't hear you. It's totally my fault. I had you on mute. I had myself on mute. You're not actually videoing this, are you? Because I'm in my pyjamas. You know, I can see you on the video, but I'm not going to use any video. Yeah. I love that you're in your pyjamas. It's perfect. I just thought, I'll get cosy. I've got my pyjamas on. Cup of tea. I'm good to go.
I mean, it is called Stripped Back, so that makes sense. Do you want me naked? No. No, that might be going slightly too far, but I love the fact that you're in your pyjamas and, yeah. I mean, why do we care so much about it, do you think? I don't know. It's for other people's perception other than our own, isn't it? Because you worry about, they will think, like, I'd be quite happy in my pyjamas, but then I think, would other people approve or…
What would they think of me sat in my pyjamas when we're doing this professional chat? What do you think they would think? Oh, thank God, she's in her pyjamas. Maybe they'd think, yeah, go Lilly in your pyjamas, just chilling. What is professional these days? God knows. Yeah, I think we've, because of COVID, we've sort of lost it, haven't we? With all these Zoom calls and nobody's going into meetings or offices or…
It seems like such a distant memory, all of that, doesn't it? Oh, thank God. Do you know what I used to do? I don't do it anymore. I'm like you, I'm fully in pyjamas. I could barely even wear a bra these days. I don't know why we would wear bras. They're so uncomfortable. Anyway, I used to have my pyjamas on bottom half, and then top half was… professional makeup, full on makeup, the earrings, which always hurt, especially with the earplugs and stuff.
And I'd have the full makeup on and everything, but I'd be quite sort of, I'd feel quite rebellious. Because nobody knew that you were just so casual. Yeah, yeah. But I think actually the truth of the reality of it is that everybody was having their pyjamas on. Yeah, definitely. Absolutely, yeah. And now… And now we can wear our whole pajamas and don't give a fuck like who cares? Yeah. I've done a few done a few interviews and not for this podcast, but other things where people have interviewed me and stuff.
And during COVID and they are all still suited and booted and I just look at them and I think, why? Yeah, but sometimes I wonder for some people, they have to be like that to be in work mode. Because I know some people that feel when I put my suit on, I'm a different person. And then when they come home and the pyjamas are on, they're a totally different person again. And I think sometimes it's for themselves to distinguish what role they're in.
Yeah. Who am I today? Who am I right now? Yeah. Deep. It's hard to know, like, because everything's all mixed up together now, isn't it? Because it was that, OK, now I would go to work and I knew that…

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I would be in work mode and I would have my work clothes I mean I was looking in my wardrobe the other day all my work clothes I mean I can't fit into any of them anymore anyway some of them still got tags on I'm like my aspirational like aspirational orange dress I bought that I don't think I'm ever going to get into but I was looking out of them thinking what is the point yeah yeah well I actually went back to work this month and I went in a jogging suit because we didn't because I work with children but there were no children there so it was just me and the boss and we were talking and he said well you wouldn't go into a school dress like that and I thought actually I would but then he's an old gent and his perception was you should you should have a suit on you know and I thought this is where we're losing in translation because I was thinking actually I would be comfortable going to talk to kids in a school. in my jogging suit and he was like no no no I'd want you in a suit to um some air of professionalism I guess because those kids are really going to notice that no but it's it's again it was him it's him not me you know what that was he's the boss and that's what he in his mind visualizes of me looking professional would be in a suit yeah hence the trouble that we're in in the world yeah because We don't wear suits.
Because there's some older gents saying, you should really wear a suit. If you don't wear a suit, then you're not going to be professional. And what? I don't know. The kids are going to be screaming at you, where's your suit, Miss Bear? Yeah, well, it's quite strange because obviously I'm an ex-offender and he's an ex-prison officer. So even though we work together, we still have this Sometimes I want to say to him, I'm not in prison, you know, you're not an officer anymore, but there's still that little, he holds the keys role that goes on between us.
And he's getting better, but he was an officer for 30 years and he knows I'm an ex-offender. So I think he struggles more than me. He still feels we're sort of in that role. So he wasn't, Lilly, he wasn't like your prison officer when you were in? No, no no no he was in an officer in a male's prison and then he opened this foundation so now we teach children about crime and domestic abuse so when he left the prison service he set that off but because he was had worked with prisoners he said he was going to give prisoners a chance and he would only employ people that you know, lived experience of the criminal justice system.
So his operations manager is also an ex-offender that served 10 years for manslaughter. And then he has me. Wow. Well, good for him, though. That sounds amazing to do that. But, you know, there's still that unconscious, he's holding the keys. Definitely. The way he walks and talks to me and everything, and I'm like,

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frying you know you can't help it and we laugh but yeah there is still that line there it may be invisible but it's definitely there. Lilly tell me about your story a little bit like where did this all start? You know it's when did it start you know and I would go back to and I think it's so relevant now with all that we're seeing regarding Black Lives Matter was the day that I was born because I was abandoned the day, well, six days after I was born because my birth mom felt she couldn't take me home because I had brown skin.
And she said that I would not have been accepted by the rest of her family. And I went into an orphanage and then I wasn't in the orphanage for very long, say six or seven months. But I guess that first six or seven months of my life when we all need our mum and that 24-hour attention. I was with 20 other babies and I guess didn't get much of that. I think I was seven when I found out I was adopted and that was by children at school poking fun at me because my mum had told their mum and they were singing Where's Your Mama Gone in the playground at seven years of age. and I was also the only brown face in the whole school so they were all saying brown girl in the ring.
So from a very early age I understood the effects of racism and the impact that that was going to have on the whole of my life. At 15 introduced to alcohol and at 15 was the first time I actually wanted to take my own life and I remember sitting down with my mum and saying I don't want to live anymore and had been heartbroken and this was in the 80s now in the 80s we didn't talk about mental health and we certainly didn't talk about it with children but I just didn't feel I belonged I had massive issues with attachment issues trust issues rejection so at 15 I started to be drinking and was introduced to boys and became quite promiscuous really because I felt that was an action of love when somebody was smothering me with kisses and cuddles and everything else that came with it and then at 17 was introduced to recreational drugs so was partying then left school at 16 and taking cocaine, drinking, wild parties and was introduced to men that were involved in crime and

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Initially they made me feel protected and loved and these were quite high up in the criminal chains. They were like businessmen, so they held a lot of power and wealth. And that love that they showed me initially quickly turned to control and then abuse. And I think from around 20 to 40, I was just banded around from one abuser to another. And each time the abuse was more severe, as each time I was losing any self-worth that I may have had, I would just drink as a coping mechanism.
So for 20 years, was in and out of abusive relationships, I ended up having four children. And at the age of 40, was sectioned under the Mental Health Act and just unable to cope anymore. had taken a huge overdose. I'm really, really lucky to be alive. It was very touch and go. And then from 40 to about 42, I was just with this guy who was extremely controlling, but extremely clever. And he was much younger than I was.
And he asked me, would I open a bank account? Because he wanted to open a business that he had debt because he'd been a student. And he felt that because I was more mature and had a good credit rating, then I would look better in front of the bank. So I did. And he then just fed me. We used to wake me up every morning with champagne. And I'd say, why are we drinking?
He'd say, because it's Monday or because it's Tuesday. And I was just really drunk for two years solid, which resulted in my children being removed from my care.

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and three months after that I was arrested for conspiracy to defraud because this guy had been using my business account to defraud people and the money was all going through my account but little did I know there wasn't just me there were 10 other me's so there were women and men that he'd manipulated in the same way so when we got to court I was surrounded by co-defendants I'd never met And because it was a conspiracy, all of the money from all 10 of us was clumped together.
And because it was over a million pound, we were all facing eight years in prison. Wow. Holy crap. Lilly Lewis. What a life. It's so bizarre because when I tell the story or my story and other people's reaction, it's not that horrific for me. because I was just living it and just surviving it. And actually the resilience that I built enabled me to manage my prison sentence very well because I needed to go through the pain of prison to fully, fully understand the joy of freedom that I would never have known had I not have gone.
And I'm the first to say that prison doesn't work.

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However for me it did so it does sound like a huge contradiction because I've seen it not work for so many women but for me it's what I call the gift of time and it was what I needed at that time. What was it like being in prison Lilly? It was so strange when I was sentenced I felt nothing but relief because I'd been on bail for two years and whilst you're on bail you've no end date, so you've no idea when court will be, you've no idea what your sentence will be, so you're just floating around and I was like that for two years, I was drinking chaotically, no longer had the children in my care.
So when I was sentenced, I remember they put me in the prison van and one of my co-defendants was another woman and she was opposite me and she was sobbing. And I remember looking out of the prison van. It was a February evening. It was dark. It was only about five o'clock. And I looked up and I said to God, you know, you've given me all this time. What am I going to do with it?
And as clear as days, we were sat next to me. He said, you're going to help and support. And I said to the girl straight away, then, why are you crying? And she said, I'm frightened. And I said, I couldn't understand what you're frightened of. And she didn't actually know. So even in that van, that journey going back. I realized there was nothing really to be frightened of. This was just another chapter of my story.
When I got into the prison, I'd never seen so much lack of hope and sadness and poor mental health and physical disabilities of 300 women in my life. I was filled with sadness for them. And I felt that my life felt privileged compared to these women. because these women, I'd never even come across these people. I didn't know they existed, women that were on the job. Did you feel like it was unfair though, Lilly, that you had got yourself into this situation that you were in prison for eight years because of something that someone else manipulated you into?
Did you not feel angry or? this isn't fair or you didn't have any of these emotions? No I didn't feel any anger. The judge did recognise actually because there was a lot of evidence about the abuse because there was a lot of physical evidence so we had hospital reports and the judge acknowledged that but when you are a perpetrator of crime and also a victim the judge does not see the victim. he just sees the perpetrator because that day he's judging you on what you're there for and he's not looking at what you've been through.
I think as well it was a lot of coercive abuse and in the UK courts anyway they don't recognise coercive abuse as a mitigating factor yet unless it's murder. So do you know it's so strange I never felt any anger, I never felt any self-pity.

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I only ever cried once in my whole four years that I was actually in custody. I just, I almost felt like this is just a plan that I have no control of, and I'm gonna make absolutely every second count. I had historically had money, so I'd been financially secure, but now time was my currency. I had no money, it was only time, so I had to, in my head I thought, I've gotta use this time to get the most that I can, this cannot be a loss, I've got to get something great out of this and I just threw myself into education, I threw myself into learning, I read your book and from reading your book I had vision boards in prison, everybody would laugh, I'd get any magazine and I would cut pictures out and put them on the board and people say what's on the table, that's what the house I'm going to live in or that's the dog I'm going to buy or and it became like a really crap job that I couldn't get out of but I was going to make the best of.
And so this is how we met isn't it that you read my book Radio Heaven when you were were imprisoned and and then and you emailed me to say this changed my I read your book in prison I remember really clearly getting this email and I get a lot of emails and I love getting emails from people saying I've read your book but yours was the most unusual I had ever had. and you said you know and then it then it disappeared you somebody took it okay that seems quite appropriate maybe from prison and then i said i invited you didn't i to come to an event and come volunteer at an event because i instantly felt like we needed to meet yeah and then and didn't you and then you came and you you volunteered and you didn't just volunteer you you actually helped me, didn't you?
You helped me sort of directly on stage because I thought, I want to know this woman, I want to know more about her. And I mean, I don't remember when that was, it was a while ago now, but- December. It was only December, God, it seemed so, it was almost about 10 months ago that we first met. And then I've been bugging you ever since, haven't I, to speak at my events, I want you to a podcast.

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You've always been a little bit apprehensive about it. So I'm so grateful that you're doing it now. So what's changed that's made you want to speak now? Well, you again, because you posted something about imposter syndrome. And this really resonated with me. And then I realised this is why I don't do anything because I feel like I shouldn't. I feel like I'm not good enough for that. Who would want to listen to me?
So again, when I read your imposter syndrome, I thought that is exactly me. I've got to get over this and, you know, get over this fear. After everything I've been through, this is going to be a doddle. But it was just, it was, it really was that I just felt not good enough to be in this position. And yeah, I fully understand what imposter syndrome is now. You see, I didn't give up, did I?
No, no. I know that that wasn't posted for me, but it really, again, was for me. No, I think we all need people like this in our lives. I mean, you said no to me, that you didn't want to speak. And I thought, OK, I'll give it a little bit longer, and then I'll come back again. And then I came back again, and you said yes. You probably said yes because… You thought you shouldn't say yes.
You didn't want to disappoint me. I don't know why you said yes. And then a few weeks later, I remember you came back and said, I just can't do it, I just can't do it. And I thought, okay, okay, give her a few more weeks and then I'll come back to her again. And now you realize I'm not going anywhere. And I wanted you to feel as comfortable as possible because I believe that your story is really important.
I believe all of our stories are important. We're talking about your story right now and making the most out of it when you were in prison. when you were in lockdown essentially when you weren't you couldn't get out and you had you were in one place and you could have been really bloody miserable about it and instead you had a different view and you dived into your education and you read my book and you did vision boards and i'm sure there must have been women around you going what

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What are you doing? You know, this is mad. But don't you think this is sort of relevant for here and now during the middle of COVID when people can't get out of the house or if they do go out of the house they're scared to do it and so many people losing their jobs and so much, so much fear, Lilly, so much fear right now. You're used to this kind of stuff.
Yeah, and I think for me that was the day that I was sentenced. I remember looking around the room and obviously there were 10 defendants. So then we had 10 barristers, we had 10 solicitors. So you can imagine how big this courtroom is. And I felt quite powerful in the sense of everybody in that room feared losing something, losing the case, losing their job, losing the wife. I'd lost everything. I was probably the only person stuck there with no fear.
You've taken everything, everything had been taken. And that was actually quite empowering. Because I don't fear anything. There was nothing they could have done. My children had gone. I'd been beaten, sexually abused, financially abused. I was just a shell. So when I come out of prison, which was only December, when I come to meet you, I'd only been released two weeks. I didn't know that. It was only two weeks. I think I come out on the 11th of December and I was up with you around the 19th or something.
I remember you saying something like, I don't know if I want to go home too late. I'm a bit nervous about getting public transport or something like that. And I remember thinking, odd. What is she nervous about being out late? But of course it makes complete sense because you haven't been used to that for a long time. I've not been out at night. So yeah, so it was all. brand new but when I come out and then very quickly got into lockdown and people say how do you cope in lockdown I'm like oh fine I'm used to being in and I'm not used to eating out and I'm locked down in a really nice place now without somebody else in the room with me and it was quite a comfort because it wasn't just me hermit in a way nobody could go out so I felt quite comfortable with that and it was an easy way back into society for me.

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What was it like in prison? You were telling me when you first went in, take us through that, when you first went in, you saw sights you'd never seen before. You came into touch with women you'd never been in touch with who you didn't know exist. You didn't know existed. When I went into prison, it was called HMP Foston Hall, which is in Derby in the UK. You go on to the remand wing when you first go in.
They're gonna watch you for 24 hours. So a lot of women there had just come straight from the courts as I had. But a lot of these women were heavy drug users, heroin addicts. And so they weren't getting any medication. So I was witnessing them go through like a rattle. Some of them were just excrementing, urinating, vomiting, just where they stood. in their pants, really shaking. It was just so disturbing. I've never seen anything like that.
Some of them were just so, had such poor mental health, they were literally, when I say pulling their own hair out, I mean, literally pulling their own hair out, screaming, fighting, fighting over sugar, fighting over toothpaste, very frightening. and frightened for them because they didn't have any sense of what they were doing. So whereas I would be reserved and still trying to hold this slight little bit of dignity that I'd had left, these girls just didn't even have that.
And it was just, I remember thinking, will this calm down? Will this end? And I was thinking of all the unhygienic things. You know, everything was just filthy. How would I sleep on that bed? There's a toilet in my room. And with another woman, we've both got to use that toilet. We've both got to eat in here, sleep in here. The windows didn't open. There was just slight vents. And I remember thinking, I've got this for four years.
You know, how will I get through? I remember trying to calculate days, and it was over a thousand days, 1,500 or 1,600 days, and thinking, I've never even thought that far ahead before. Did it get any better? Did it say the same? It got so much better. So you're only in that horrendous unit for a few days, and then they move you onto a wing, and then the wing that I was on. at that point you could smoke in prisons, I don't think you can now but I didn't smoke so I was on a non-smoking wing and you found on those wings were more mature women because a lot of the younger girls smoked but I was also, they used to tell the sex offenders to say you don't smoke so they got on the more mature wings so I was also surrounded by women who were sex offenders and some women who had killed their own children and

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I was what you call a Samaritan listener. So I was on call 24 hours. I was trained by the Samaritans. They come in and trained me. And you would be called out any time, day or night, usually about two or three in the morning when women just couldn't cope or felt they wanted to take their own life. And the majority of calls were from sex offenders or women who had murdered their own children.
And I think that was their only safe space when they felt they could talk to someone. And I found that really difficult as a mother and as a woman, I think, that I had empathy for them and I struggled with that as well because these women were treated so bad, bullied, beaten, terrible things done to them, that even though I knew what they'd done was so wrong, inside I had empathy for them.
I couldn't help that. And I struggled with that. But yeah. Once I got myself into education and work, in jobs, in prison, it just became my life. You'd go to bed at seven o'clock, get up at seven o'clock. So I knew there were only 12 core hours in the day that I had to get through mixing with other people, trying to keep my own space clean. I didn't have any support. My parents had washed the hands of me.
I never had one visitor in the four years. No letters, no stamps, and I sort of, I think I liked it that way. I don't know whether it was a further punishment for myself or it was a real wake up call that things had to change for me. So although the surroundings got slightly better, I guess the emotions and the sadness and the trauma and the lack of hope never got better.

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because that was a continuous. I'm always really interested, Lilly, in people, particularly women, who find themselves in a very, very difficult situation. And whereas the masses would react in a different way, you didn't. You chose a different path. And you used this time, this very difficult time, to reinvent, Lilly, to become who you are today which we're going to talk a little bit more about in a minute but when you were in it because I think a lot of us are in it right now you know we're in our own version our own version of prison so how did you know when it was so difficult in there Lilly and so many people would have not made the most of it as you did do you remember how you used to keep going how you used to keep that spark going on a daily basis I meditated every day I would you would get locked up at lunch time, I'd meditate through lunch.
I got myself a DVD player and I went to the library and I got every meditation CD I could get my hands on and I would listen to that and I threw myself into the bible and I'd never been religious before. I found myself talking to God a lot because he was the only person I got any sense out of in there. I didn't really have a dull moment then. It's so strange.
And even now, I was always upbeat. I never, I just got on with it. I was happy for most part because I've never had this. I've always had a man physically or emotionally abusing me. I was always drunk. This was the first time my mind was clear. Even though I was locked away, it was the first time I was ever been free. I felt the freedom. And it was, that was lovely for me.
And it also, I found my gift which was to make other people feel really good about themselves. And it might've been passing a compliment to somebody who hadn't even brushed the hair for a week and to see, you know, their face lit up when I said something kind to them. So I just found little gems, little gifts, little bits of sparkle along the way every day. And I would go to bed at night and I would, I would have inner peace.
Love that. I really do. I mean, you know, you're right. I love what you said where even though you were locked up, it was the first time you truly, you were truly free because you weren't drunk and you didn't have anyone around telling you what to do and you had that time and you had that space. I think that's so, so phenomenal. I mean, how did it, because I know that you're very passionate about.

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justice system now and you're very passionate particularly about women in the justice system. What did you experience in there? What did you see, feel, notice, listen? What happened that has made you so passionate about it now? Yeah, so in the UK we've only got 4,000 female prisoners. We have 81,000 men but about 4,000 women and I was in for four years. I served four years which was a long time and I was moved around lots of different prisons.
And I was probably one of the longest serving prisoners other than a lifer who'd taken another life. But what I did see was the same women coming in and out. So it was like this revolving door. One woman I knew had been in 32 times. So this didn't make sense to me. They would come in, they would go out, they'd be out for two months, they would come in. So it didn't work.
It wasn't working because it was the same faces that I kept seeing. And people kept saying, oh, you back in. I'd say, I've never gone home. I'm still here. But they were just, so I was, so in my thought process, I thought if this is meant to be about rehabilitation, if we are going to see a reduction in crime, this, whatever we're doing now isn't working. So it doesn't make sense. What would have made more sense was to have got these women in the community and really rehabilitate and got them into some courses.
And instead of getting them to do English and maths, some courses about life skills and budgeting and childcare and the things that we need and really helping them to turn their life around, supporting them into a house, a job, all the money that they were using to keep these women. in and out of prison and court was a waste for everybody. So I just started to think that the justice system's got it wrong because we're not seeing a reduction in crime and we're seeing the same criminals back.
So my idea or my campaigning is to stop these short sentences, stop sentences for non-violent crimes, stop sentences for women who are in prison due to domestic abuse or coercive behavior. And let's really educate. Well, I think that's just brilliant. You know, my knowledge about the justice system and the prison system is pretty limited, Lilly, and I'm learning a lot from you. But I do know that there are significantly less female prisoners than there are male prisoners.
And I do know that there can be a huge amount of bias when it comes to women being imprisoned. And it strikes me as so desperately sad that this is the situation and that level of vulnerability is not being addressed. It makes me so sad. It makes me so happy that you went into prison, as bizarre as that may sound, because if you hadn't, I don't know whether you would be here, number one.
I wouldn't be alive now, the way it was so touch and go near the end. And I didn't want to be alive. It wasn't a cry for help. I genuinely did not want to be here. I always wanted to be asleep. So I was self-medicating on sleeping tablets. And every time I woke up, I hated that. So I would drink and re-medicate. I genuinely did not want to be alive. And now I love life.
I love every second of every day. So it did definitely save my life. And if you hadn't, also, you know, if you hadn't been through this experience, you wouldn't be doing the work that you're doing now. We wouldn't have met. Exactly. You wouldn't be as passionate as you are about what you're doing. And I just think, I mean, there's so many sort of rags to riches stories out there. I had this challenge and I overcame, and now I'm making a million dollars and I've got my own business or whatever it is, but I don't.

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we don't hear enough stories about everyday women going through the things that they go through that you went through and coming out the other end, coming out the other end and also sharing their story about it. I mean, there's a lot of guilt and shame and I don't want to talk about that and that was then and this is now, but tell me a little bit more about what you're doing now and the work that you're doing now, Lilly.
Yeah, so my actual job, which I do two days a week, is working with disadvantaged children. And I deliver programmes on child sex exploitation, domestic abuse at home. So these children have witnessed at home, so we talk a lot about that. And we talk about racism. The work that I do, which is just the work that I say I'm passionate about, is I write blogs. I will speak to journalists. I'm very open about what I've been through.
I'm very honest. I am trying to make a change around institutionalized racism, for the racism that I saw whilst in custody. I made a promise to myself when I was released that that sentence would not be in vain, and that if I could make a positive change for one other person, then it would be worth it. and in fact tomorrow I am attending court with a young lady who's going to be sentenced who doesn't have any family who reached out to me and said what's prison like and we got talking and I said I will attend court with her tomorrow for her sentencing so they're the sorts of things that I do just because I want to do them.
If we were at an event right now I feel like you would people would be acknowledging you and cheering and clapping so I want to give you that.

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that virtually. Can I ask about your children, Lilly? What happened there? Yes. Okay, so I very rarely talk about my youngest two. I have a little boy who's nine and I have a little girl who is 14. My son's father was heavily involved in gun crime and he lost his life in 2014 at just the age of 27. My daughter's father was a professional boxer. He was a world champion kickboxer and when he lost his title, he used me as his punch bag and he ended up going to prison for four years for the abuse that he did to me and the emotional abuse on the children.
I've only been out nine months, so baby steps, but I have had contact with them and then we went into lockdown. So now we have contact over Skype, and I weekly email social services with, hi, I'm still here, when can we get me risk assessed? I'll never give up. If it takes till they're 18 till they come through the door, then that's so be it, but I am working towards that. Then I have Isabelle, who I talk about a lot, who's 20.
And Isabelle was my protector from the age of seven. She would stand literally between me and the perpetrator and try to fight him off. And she suffers with poor mental health now and anger issues and stems from what she has seen. And then I have a big girl who's 30, who lives in Spain. And when my younger children were removed from my care, she wrote to me and said, I can't have a relationship with you.

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till you get my family back together and when you do contact me and I'll come over and she's never spoke to me since she's kept to her word. Things are changing though I can feel it for you Lilly and your determination and your resilience is an example to us all it really is. What are your dreams for the future Lilly Belle? Okay goals because I like goals and they're going to be achievable so the children will be home.
It may be for a weekend, for an overnight stay, for a holiday. That's number one. To make change and for people to recognise what I've done, I don't mean rewarded financially, I just mean that people recognise that my sentence wasn't in vain and that I'm going to make things better for women that are behind me. I go to the beach often and I quite often sit there, but I think about the women I've left behind.
I find that heartbreaking, especially in these times. And just to continue with my campaigning and my voice and telling my story, but changing the narrative to where I am now, because I can't change the story, but I can definitely change the narrative. And I don't want it to be a woe is me. I want it to be, wow, look at me. and just continue every day. Oh, actually, I've got something really exciting, which I don't even think I've told you.
This week, I started bodybuilding. I've got a challenge with a coach. By this time next year, I'm gonna be competition ready. So at the minute, I'm training four times a week. My diet is insane. I'm eating the same food every day and training. So that is my next personal goal. I love it. I know. What are you eating? What is it? Okay, let me tell you, this is the same every day.
Every day, okay. So, breakfast, every day the same. So it's almond milk, oats, blueberries, protein powder, snack at ten, rice crackers and tuna, lunch, sweet potato, chicken, green veg, snack at four, rice crackers, tuna. tea time, salmon, green vegetables, avocado, evening Greek yogurt. Sounds delicious! It sounds restaurant-ready! Okay, it's a hell of a lot better than prison food. Lilly Belle, are you? I can see it now, the Lilly braids, and I'm in this gym.
I know! Have you ever thought about writing a book, Lilly?

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We're just going backwards and forwards now. And the reason being, everybody wants me to write a sad book. Everybody wants me to write about being this victim. My book and my story cannot be about that. I want it to be about hope. I want it to be about transformation. I want it to be about reinventing yourself. And that's not catching the headlines at the moment. So I'm looking for somebody that's going to be on my wavelength.
And yes, of course, we can talk about all of the trauma. Of course, we can talk about all of the sadness. But it has to be a book about, I did it, you can do it. And just so that people that may be going through one of the things that I went through, finds that courage to make a change before it's too late. Did I ever tell you how I wrote Radio Heaven?
No. So… It might work for you, might not, but what I did was I recorded it because I'm not a big writer. So I recorded, I said everything I wanted to, I mean a friend helped me and she would like ask me questions but basically I just recorded the whole thing like into my phone and then I had, and then you know you can record, you can actually record into your phone and or you can have it recorded for you.
And I had two really great people that helped me with that. But then I ended up with this big, lovely transcript, because it can just be typed up really easily. Or you can even do it on your phone, because I do it on notes, and it will try and transcript it for you. So maybe you don't even need to find a good writer. You could just start speaking into your phone, telling your story, like you have to me.
And then you'll have your book. Something that I did while I was in prison was my friend sent me a journal. So every day for one year I wrote about something that happened on that day historically and what was happening on that day today and all about what was going on then. Today I'm in prison and I've been to the gym and I wrote over that of every day doing that. You could carry on with that.
I think you would have a brilliant book. The Lilly Bell Story. I think there's so much that people still don't know, even though I tell them a story, there's so much of actual incidents that happen that aren't out there yet. So there's still a lot more to tell. What's something that you don't really talk about with this story that you think is really valuable for women to know?

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Yeah, I think my youngest, two children really, and especially my little girl who's 14. I didn't get to see them for the first 22 months in custody. In fact, I was told I would not see them throughout my sentence, but I wrote and I kept telling the social worker everything I'd done whilst in prison. And when I got to open prison, they let me go and see them. And when I sat down with them, my daughter was so untrusting. and so sad and so away from me and that was the only day I cried in the whole of, I feel emotional now but that was the only day throughout my whole prison sentence I cried when I got back because I could see how much I'd hurt her and to see that in her little face just broke my heart and if I'd have known the pain I was causing them if I could have seen that through sober eyes it would never have got that far.
And I think that's what I say toward the mums. You've got legs and you can walk, but your children can't walk away from that situation. I love you so much, Lilly Belle. It makes me so sad because she couldn't change the way she felt about me and she was only little at that time. Of course. It's hard to know at that age, isn't it, what you have in front of you and actually how phenomenal her mother is going to be.
How could she know that? It's impossible to know that. But she'll know. The great thing on our last contact when my little boy went to the toilet, she said, I've got something to tell you. And she wanted to tell me that she had a boyfriend. And she looked at me and straight away I knew she's coming back because she was so excited and wanted to tell mum that she was now and had this boyfriend.
Right yeah and I mean you would have a lot of advice there right? You'd be like okay, kiddo, sit down because there's a whole load of things that you are not going to do that I did.

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She's so amazing anyway, and she's absolutely intellectually gifted. You know, she's a little diamond and can't wait to get home. You were telling me, and it breaks my heart to hear it from you, but you say it with such fierceness when you say it, because of COVID, prisons right now, the women's prisons, I imagine all prisons, we're talking particularly about the women's prisons right now, are on lockdown 23 out of 24 hours a day.
So what does that mean right now? What would that look like if you were in prison right now? Okay, the longest I was ever locked in was 19 hours a day and even that was absolutely horrendous. The lady that was in the cell with me was a self-harmer so she would, I'd have to hide my razors and stuff from her, she would get anything she could and cut chunks out of her legs. they only have to allow you to shower every three days so you have the sink in your room but that sink you've got to wash your teeth in, wash your smells in, wash your cups in and everything else and you're sharing this with somebody else.
I was quite lucky because I learned how to meditate really well and I could meditate for hours. It's the mental torture. you would hear the officers going past with their keys and you'd sort of jump to the edge of your bed hoping they would open that door. In the summer it was so hot, unbelievably hot and they would open the flap and pass you a sandwich or some crisps and when I'm saying 19 hour lockup you would be in that cell for 19 hours and I know now the women are 23 hours. in some of the women's estates.
Men are longer than that. The men are getting 15 minutes out. The men here are using buckets to go to the toilet. Can you imagine for one second that was your brother, your son, your partner, your father? And this is because of the fear of Covid spreading and the high likelihood of Covid spreading. Yeah. And I guess there's a lot of staff off because if they have any symptoms, they can't go in.
So it'll be staff shortages. So what can we do about this right now, Lilly? Anything? No, I mean, there doesn't seem to be much support for prisoners. And even when I go on social media, such as Twitter, a lot of people have still the mentality, oh, the prisoners keep them locked up. Not many people have empathy, which really shocks me because I didn't realise. how the majority felt. The things that I offer to do, if anybody knows anybody that doesn't have visits or any support, I offer to write and just keep making a noise about it.
Here in the UK, they were meant to release a certain amount of prisoners or release them early. I had a friend and they only ended up letting her out three weeks early. There's just this reluctantly. to make this easy for people in prison. My thought process will be in years to come to see the knock-on effect of what we've done to these people in prison, whether we're going to see a huge increase in crime when they're eventually released, because we've locked them up longer than we would an animal.
So how will these people be upon release? How will they cope? What will their mental state be?

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What would you say to people who have that lock-em-up attitude and don't have that empathy? Yeah, I would say it can happen to anybody. And I met so many women. I met one lady who was a nurse. She was driving home after a long, long shift, fell asleep at the wheel, had a crash, caused somebody to lose their life. She got five years in prison. So… this could happen to you or anybody you know or love it doesn't have to be somebody who's purposely gone out committed a crime anybody can find themselves in that situation and you know truly ask yourself do we want to see do you want to see a reduction in crime because if you do what we're doing now is not going to get that we're not going to achieve that we're creating more criminals in the environment really and So this is an example of another system that is broken.
And I've been talking about this a lot, like everything is breaking down right now. Education, schools, government, companies, everything's breaking apart. I mean, everything was at breaking point anyway, right Lilly? I mean, it was a breaking point anyway. And then suddenly COVID came along and it's put these systems under so much pressure that it's even worse they're breaking apart even worse but it's up to people like you and me and others listening and those of us that are passionate about trying to do something anything please something to make some kind of difference and that's what you're doing on a daily basis what would you how would you like it to be lily like if we made lily bell the queen of changing the

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justice system and the prison system, what would you do? If it was up to me right now, I would start letting especially open prisoners out, D-cat prisoners. I would reduce the pressure by letting the people who are the minimum risk, who are already in open conditions, home. You could either, whether that be on tag or some kind of stricter probation. That would then release the pressure. It would make more officers available.
These people are probably due out in the next three to six months anyway. And then I would stop sending people to prison on short sentences for non-violent crimes and dealing with them in the community. And again, that would alleviate the pressure that we're seeing with this revolving door of the same women in and out and start having a lot more community-based, rehabilitative. centers where we are focusing on the issue. I've just written a blog actually, which I call the domino effect.
And with women, it's never one issue, everything overlaps. So it could start with domestic abuse. Then that might lead to substance misuse. And then that will lead to poor mental health. Then that will lead to problems with children. And it's like each domino falling one after the other. And it's not enough to tackle one problem. we need to look at the whole problem in order to make changes. So for me it would be stop these short sentences that are doing nothing and the people that are our lowest risk get them back into the community and let's start rehabilitating and getting them into work.
Lilly, no offense but it sounds like common sense to me, it doesn't sound like rocket science, I mean it just sounds like a very sensible, pragmatic, important thing. to get on and do. So, why the fuck isn't it happening? You know, I don't know, because the people that are in power and in control of this, I think they're so scared to be soft on prisoners. They're so scared of the backlash from the general population.
And I'm convinced that's what holds them back. They're scared of public perception. Maybe we have to change public perception a little bit, eh?

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Exactly, and that's exactly what I try and do. When I tell my stories, I try to change the perception of women in prison. Certainly changing my perception. Lilly, what would you say to women who were you? Were you when you were in those years between 20 and 40? What would you say to women that if we were so lucky could be listening to this podcast now, maybe somehow they stumbled upon it.
I don't know how my book would have ended up in prison. I have no idea how it ended up there, but it did. And one copy of it's still there because somebody nicked it. Okay, well that's good, you know, pay it forward and all of that. But you never know where things are going to end up. You never know who might be listening to this now and they could be in a similar situation and when you're like that… it's really, really, really hard to get out of it, isn't it?
Because you're so like, I mean, in some ways you were plucked out of it and you were put into a situation where you couldn't drink and you didn't have anyone controlling you and you were, but not everyone has that situation happened to them. And so, it's just so bloody tough, isn't it, when you're in that kind of situation. Sometimes you don't even know you're in it, but some people might be listening to it, oh my God, that.
This is me right now. What would you say to a woman like that? The advice I would give anybody is pick up the phone or find yourself a woman centre local to where you live. I wish I'd have known more about them. There will always be somebody in one of those centres that can help you. I was frightened of authority. I didn't want to speak to the police. I didn't want to speak to social services.
I was untrusted of them. But if I'd have known of a good women's centre that I could have gone for support that was not biased, that would be my advice to anybody. And don't put it off a day, just bite the bullet and do it. Women supporting women again without judgment. Yeah. And you could just find a women's centre, like search on Google, search on your phone. you know ask around a little bit there's going to be women's centres everywhere.
Absolutely in every town small town there will be some women's centre and definitely reach out because when I was in the beginning of all this I would never have dreamt I would have gone to prison I used to think they wouldn't put a woman like me in prison I'm a victim I've been abused I was abandoned but they do. And what would you say

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to a younger person, you know, that was maybe finding themselves in their teens or something like that, and maybe sort of this path is starting to emerge. What are the signs to look out for when you're that kid? And what do you do when you can't leave the house and go to Women's Centre because you're a kid, you're a teenager? You know things are going down the wrong path, and we know what happens for a lot of young people these days.
Yeah, I think for me, and it's something I tell my daughter who's 20, who's the one that has the most problems, I say to her, think of the craziest thing in the world that you would like to be or do, pop star, football player, whatever it is, and go for it, aim for it. Because when I was young, I wanted to be a police woman, and my father said to me, you can't go into the police, you're black. and you're a woman, and now I wish I had, because how different, and I'd have been a bloody good one.
Well, you know, think aim high, aim high, whatever you want to be. If you aim high, you'll get somewhere along the way. And what's your biggest aspiration, Lilly? If I asked you the same question, like you can be anything, do anything. I think my first one is… just to be a great mum and get the kids home. But other than that, I want to be an ambassador, an ambassador for women's justice.
I want people to know that when I'm going to talk, I'm going to say something that everybody needs to listen to. And that when I take them on, they need to be frightened because I'm going to make a change. Well, I would say you already are that, actually.

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Thank you. I want to be a force to be reckoned with. I want people to know that when I am doing something, it's going to happen. Lilly Bell, what can I say? I'm so glad to know you. I'm so glad you read my book. I'm so glad you came to the event. I'm so glad I bugged you consistently and constantly about speaking. I don't know what you were worrying about because you are a tremendously articulate, powerful, great, funny, entertaining, interesting, deep, thoughtful, emotional speaker and it's been amazing and I've loved speaking with you and I really, my greatest wish is that so many people will listen to this and it will change their points of view on so many things so many things on the prison system on women in prison on on following your dreams on being in difficult situations on being in lockdown and making how to make the most of it i'm lost for words it doesn't happen very often well thank thank you and also you know to anybody that is listening if you need a life change then definitely read radio heaven because it gave me all of the inspiration that I needed.
I've still got a vision board now and I still know that I can visualise to materialise and if you want it hard enough, you'll get it. So, thank you. Well, thank you. Oh, well, thank you. A little plug for the book there. We're doing a future plug for Lilly's book coming soon. No, it's the truth. It's the truth and we wouldn't be here today if I hadn't read it and reached out to you, so.
Thank you. I'm so I'm you know, I'm beyond I just beyond thrilled that you did and thank you so much and I'm so excited that you're going to be Speaking with me again in our conference coming up in a couple of weeks. So that's coming and Count me in as a huge fan of yours Count me in as someone who wants to help you do whatever you do count me in as someone that you can call up in the middle of the night and say I need you to put this on social media or something.
You need to do this for me. I'm going to be there. I'm there. I'm a big fan. And I promise to not be in my pajamas for the conference. Do you know what? I want you to be in your pajamas for the conference. Seriously, I'm so over it all. I'm much more likely to connect with you and with anyone else when they're just normal. So, yeah, yeah.

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I can't even really see you in your pyjamas. There you go, comfy jarmies. Look at me, I'm in comfy stuff too, isn't it? All right, my darling, we'll speak soon. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you, Sam. Have a lovely day. And you. Bye, Lilly. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Wow, so that was my conversation with Lilly Bell, and it really has taken me quite a long time to help her get her confidence up enough to want to do this.
And I was wondering how it would be, actually. I was wondering whether she would be a little bit shy in telling her story, but she wasn't, was she? She just absolutely spilled it all out. And I have to say, it was quite emotional for me in some parts, especially when she was talking about the fact that she nearly died and she didn't want to live and her experience of being in prison and imagining what that must have been like. knowing that there are 4,000 women in the UK that are experiencing this right now and many, many more across the globe.
It just feels so bloody wrong. And thank God she did use that experience to grow and to, who does that? You know, she developed her education and she read my book and she came out of prison. early in order to get her kids back and to reunite her family and to do something that made a difference to the prison system. And that's pretty unusual stuff, I think. And so she's an example of a phenomenal woman who doesn't think she's very phenomenal.
And there are many, many, many women like that out there. so bloody tough. I wanted to ask her more about when she was drunk every day and the abuse that she got. I mean, I think I held myself back a bit because I didn't know whether it was going to be too difficult for her to share, but that she got so manipulated. And I suppose you could say, well, you know, she should have been in control of her own mind, whatever.
But that's easy to say and not so easy to do when you're in those kind of abusive relationships with powerful people, with powerful men often. that really know how to do what they were doing. And this guy that was manipulating her was manipulating 10 other people at the same time. I mean, that's really quite something. She's one to watch, I think, Lilly Belle. And she's a name that we're all gonna know about, or we should know about at least.
And I'm excited to watch her progress. It's only been nine months that she's been out of prison. And look at what's happened in this nine months, six of it. She's been in COVID and still achieving amazing things. So watch this space with regards to Lilly Belle because she's someone who is going places and wow, so, so bloody glad I know and I'm really, really happy that she decided to do this. And I feel, I sort of feel like if she did that, why could I ever complain about anything ever again?
Even though… I probably will. So I'm really glad that she did that and I'm excited to see how this podcast will turn out.

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