Reluctant Feminist

Can I point you to my T-shirt? Oh, how much do I love and want your T-shirt? Women belong in all the places where decisions are being made. I bloody love that quote. Doesn't that just sum it up? I mean, she just summed it up in that T-shirt, didn't she? Love it. I just went for a walk, quick walk with the dog before doing the podcast with you. And I was hoping that someone would say, oh, love your T-shirt.
No one did. They're just not worthy of being in the presence of your T-shirt. I would say more important things to do than comment on my T-shirt as I was walking my dog. So I wanted I was on my profound walk with dog. I came up with the first question for you. So along the lines of RBG. If women were in all the places where decisions are being made, which clearly we're not right now, because that's why the world's in such a situation as it is, what do you think the difference would be?
Oh, I just think it would be a much better world, wouldn't it? I know it would be a better world. And I think, you know, for me, it's quite simple, really, this, isn't it? At the moment, we have women missing from most conversations, or very, you know, if they're represented in very, very low numbers, and you just miss things in the conversation. So you get inputs get missed, ideas get missed, perspectives get missed.
It's not that there's anything wrong with the people or men who are in those discussions. They're just, they cannot possibly represent all views. And I think it's a diversity point in general, isn't it? When a team is diverse, better inputs, better ideas, better decisions, better outcomes, better results. I just think If we look back on some of the really bad decisions that have been made over the last year in the pandemic, when it came to lockdown and childcare and closing schools, then I just think those things would have been handled so differently if women had been represented in the room.
And everyone would have been better for that. Women would have come out better, but I think everyone would have come out better. So, yeah, I think it's the simplest thing we could do, really. I laughed. out loud when I saw that report that LSE, the London School of Economics, did that research and they found the breakthrough learning that women hadn't really been adequately represented in governmental meetings that were deciding on pandemic policy, which of course we'd all known based on the stuff that came out.
And the conclusion was they should have had some gender experts present. And you just laugh and say, no, they didn't need gender experts present. They needed some women present. It's really, I just, am I, is it, is my brain too simple? I just think this is so simple and obvious. I don't understand why we don't get it and we don't do it. You know, when you said more diverse teams equal, and that's something that I mean, I've been in this field for a long time, as you have these research reports have been coming out for years.
You know, more women on boards equals more financial return on investment. Well, I thought that might have shifted a few things because everyone likes the bottom line. Nope. More women in teams equals more innovation. I thought that might do it considering. We all like to be able to innovate and develop new products and systems and whatever, whatever. More women on boards equals better corporate governance, better decision-making. No, that didn't do it either.
More women make sure people don't die in pandemic thought that might do it. No, no, not really. No, we don't care. No one cares. It's all just, is it like climate change? I think it's just all a bit too. Big, a bit too overwhelming. We think it's simple, but is it really simple? I mean, you were in a big job, weren't you? You were at that decision-making table. What was that like?
The first thing that I'd say is on a macro level, before I talk about, you know, going into what it was like for me, which, you know, I can share. I think you know all those things that you've said are true and I think pretty unequivocally true based on the data that all that is absolutely correct. I think the first issue is people clearly don't really believe it do they? These companies they don't really believe that so they see that data and you know anyone worth their soul and anyone who spends more than a few minutes thinking about gender equality knows that data.
They can't possibly believe it because if they believed it as you say they'd all be on it because it would be hey guaranteed growth and better results we want a piece of that it would be the number one priority for every company let alone the thing that drops off the priority list because we've got you know a crisis so i think first they don't really believe it so it is like it's so it is it's like climate deniers covid deniers gender equality deniers

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Yeah, they don't, they don't really, really believe. And I think, by the way, it's because people don't think through that simple logic of, of course, the diverse team is going to just the dynamics of it, it's going to bring more diverse inputs. And that's, that's got to be better, that's got to lead to more complete discussions and more complete, better decisions. But I think the other thing is that even for those who do believe it, and you know there are some who do, the invisible forces acting against it are so strong and so many and they're just pulling us, there are invisible forces pulling us away from gender equality every day.
So I think it's extremely hard, it's like well even if you believe this is extremely difficult to go up against and overcome so you know if you don't believe then then obviously nothing's ever going to happen and you've just got this self-fulfilling prophecy because You know, you've got a world that's 90% run by men, businesses, companies, societies. And most of them are really well intended. They don't even realize it's happening, but they just keep continuing the self-fulfilling prophecy of concluding that the man's better for the job will give it to the man.
So it's extremely difficult. And you know, for me personally, I just never thought I was going to see it. I just really thought, I thought I was immune. I thought I had I had a gender equality inbuilt vaccine and I was fine. And I was for a long time and I didn't really have issues personally for a long time. I saw issues, but I didn't have them. And then I got to that senior vice president level where I was really 80% men, male dominated culture for the first time in my career.
And it was absolutely like hitting a wall, an invisible wall, but a wall, a ceiling, I guess. And I just realized at that point, I've just been really, really lucky. I've been so lucky that I've only just really hit this now because I know so many women hit this really early on. Depending on what kind of industry you work in, what kind of company you work in, what kind of function you're expert in, you can hit this super.
I just said, well, thank goodness I didn't hit it earlier because it obviously built up a lot of experience and a lot of self-confidence by the point. that I hit it. But still, it absolutely throws you because you think, what is this? What is what is this that I'm experiencing? I'm, I'm doing and saying I'm being exactly what I've always who I've always been. And it always used to work really well.
And in this male dominant environment, it just felt dominant environment just doesn't doesn't work in the same way. I could see it happening. to the other women around me as well. So it's a very, very tough one. You know, people have talked so much about gender equality, and yet we're still nowhere. We're still absolutely stuck even in reverse, which just shows you how very, very difficult it is, I think. Do you remember that moment when you, you describe yourself in your book, don't you, as a reluctant feminist?
Do you remember that moment when you sort of realise, oh, ooh something's going on here yeah i mean i think i i was like a lot of women you know i talk about feminist phobia i i think feminism has a lot of baggage that's been attached to it that doesn't serve it well at all it's completely irrelevant to it it's nothing to do with feminism at all and i think i probably fell into that trap a little bit for a long time of of not necessarily wanting to be associated with it because of the baggage.
And then when you step back and say, hey, do you know what, feminism is just a belief in equality and equal opportunity for everyone, then of course you have to sign up, really. What was the moment for me? I mean, it was absolutely that meeting room environment where I felt, and specifically in a meeting room, that was a male dominated one. So it was very much at that senior level, that board and executive level where it really gets in most companies, it starts to get to 80% plus men.
And you know, what's interesting for me is I didn't notice it immediately because I had no expectation of it. You know, I've been like many women I've been brought up. I've been brought up to absolutely believe in myself, to believe I was equal to anyone, mixed comprehensive school. It just never even occurred to me that a boy or a man might be my superior or think he was. And I really felt that for a very long time.
I didn't question it for a very long time, 20 years. And so when I first went into that environment, Obviously I noticed there were a lot of men, but it wasn't a problem for me because I thought, well, you know, so what, men, women, who cares, we're all equals. And it actually took a little bit of time to start to realize, oh no, this isn't the same dynamic at all. And the way I really noticed it was in that meeting room discussion, in those discussions, and really noticing that there was a completely different dynamic between the men.

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than there was between the men and the women. And obviously I was a very good company, very good, decent man, very good intentions and very polite. So you didn't get a lot of the classic rudeness. You didn't get any of the overt sexism. They were far too smart for that. But you didn't really get the rude interruptions. But I felt the dynamic was completely different. And I felt that the women were much less able to get a word in.
When they did, there seemed to be much more of a sense of pressure on them to finish their point very, very quickly before being interrupted whilst I would see some men holding the floor. And these were not men who were running the meetings for 15, 20 minutes without interruption. And not necessarily being very interesting, by the way. If they were interesting, you could kind of forgive it, couldn't you? But… So I really noticed that.
I really noticed that there was just this huge share of voice that the men were taking and were very comfortable taking. And then there were women who were trying to make themselves as short and small and quick as possible. But I think the big thing that really struck me, and it took me a while to realize this, but it was the difference in engagement. So again, very polite men. The women would speak and then there would be, it was all a bit tumbleweed and there were no builds and no, you know, real acknowledgements.
And when the men started discussing, it was like, that's when the engagement really started. That's when they were interested. That's when the debate got going. That's when things were built on and exchanged and picked up on and great point. And it was a completely different dynamic. So the women were treated very politely. but I really felt they weren't respected in the same way. And for me, I do believe that more than anything, the gender gap is a respect gap.
I think it's a respect gap. And that gap in respect may show up very, very subtly, or it may show up very somewhere. Sometimes it can show up very overtly and horribly, but I think it's essentially the same thing. I think there was a different level of respect that men have for other men. than for other women in general. In that moment you decided to write your book. Tell us about that.
So it was a little bit later than that moment. In that moment I had an epiphany of something is going on here that I've been completely unaware of up until my career so far and I've just been extremely lucky not to have experienced it because I've been in much more gender-balanced cultures where I could perform very comfortably and very well. So what happened when I had that epiphany was then fascination. So it was, I was fascinated.
That was my reaction. What is this? I don't understand it. I want to understand it. So I read lots of books, read lots of articles, and obviously then I learned more and more and more and saw the extent of it and saw that, of course, it wasn't about Jill. It wasn't about the women around Jill. It wasn't about the men around Jill and it wasn't about this company. It was everywhere. Literally everything that I looked into, it was happening at the senior levels.
No matter how balanced an organization or a company was at the recruitment level, they became very, very male dominant at the top. So 90% plus men, and obviously we all know 7% of CEOs are women, 9% of heads of state. So that was when I decided to write the book it was that oh my goodness this is happening absolutely everywhere it's happening to women everywhere and it's a problem you know it's a problem because this means women aren't represented and that is a bad thing that's bad for everybody that's bad for business it's bad for society and so that's when I decided I wanted to write about it but not just to write about the data because most people are aware at least top line of the data but what I was really interested in was getting under the surface and understanding why does it really happen because I don't think we talk enough about that.
I think we talk enough about, we talk a lot about it happens and we frankly get very angry about that and we complain a lot about that and we say we must fix it but… I believe you only really solve a problem when you truly understand what happens and you get really under the surface and into the psychology of it. And I think behind the bad intentions, so looking beyond the badly intended stuff, which is very rare, I do believe in general.
And actually what I find fascinating is the stuff that happens with good intentions. So the stuff that good, decent, well-intended men who absolutely would call themselves supporters of women and supporters of gender equality are unintentionally nonetheless doing, you know, these things are contributing to this probably even more than some of the things that the badly intended are doing. So that's what motivated me really was to understand the why. and really explore that and and share that because then I believe that in doing that it actually helps men women all genders to understand each other better and if if a man is truly well intended and he understands this then I think he can start to do something about it.
I love that you when you noticed this you became fascinated

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I just want to point to that as an emotion because we can get angry, we could get frustrated, we can want to jump into solutions mode, which I think as business people that happens all the time, or we could sort of sit there quietly stewing. It can negatively impact. confidence as well, can't it, if you're in those kinds of situations and, you know, we can go into ourselves. So sort of fight or flight stuff I think can happen.
But I love that you became fascinated, Jo. I really liked that because I think it's such a great place to go. And then you went outside and started to really research it and understand it. And I remember doing the same thing myself early on when I started Aspire. And suddenly, you know, your eyes become wide open, don't they? Like, wow, like there's so much out here. There's people that study this day in, day out.
This is not a new thing. I'm not the only person that's feeling this way, which is really powerful stuff. But not only did you do that, but then you decided to have your own take on it and look at it and explore it yourself. And then you've, you know, you actually went even further than that and wrote a book on it. I haven't really thought about that very much, it being a respect gap.
So when you wrote the book and having now had your book out for a while and getting the feedback that you're getting on it, I think a lot of people will be listening thinking, but what do we do? What do we do now? I understand that this is an issue and it's been an issue for a long time. What is it that we have to offer here that's a bit different to maybe some of the solutions that have been out there in the past?
Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing comes back to that point of job number one is everyone needs to truly understand, everyone needs to do that work, whether it's reading this book or reading whatever you really need to read. to understand why it happens and that it is so much more complicated than men waking up in the morning and wanting to build the patriarchy. I mean, that is simplistic and damaging and just alienates men from the whole thing, which is going to get us nowhere because they're running 90% plus of the world.
So I think really truly understanding why and then understanding specifically how am I contributing to it. So even though I don't intend to, How am I contributing to it? And by the way, that's not just men, that's women as well. There are some things that women do, I think, that contribute to this. And I think the big thing for me is understanding and just accepting that this isn't going to go away naturally.
It isn't going to right itself naturally. I think there are a lot of people who believe that, yeah, this is a problem, but it'll sort itself out. Look, we're on the path. We've seen lots of women. We've seen lots of CEOs who are women. We've seen prime ministers who are women. We're on the path to it sorting itself out. And I just don't believe we are. I just, you know, there's every few weeks, the World Economic Forum tells us how many hundreds of years it will take to get to gender equality.
And I think it's currently 136. And I just don't buy it. Because I honestly believe that if we don't do some really, really significant manual things, it'll be eternity. And I absolutely believe it will be, we will be here until eternity. And that in 1000 years that somebody will write, why men still win at work? I mean, because of these self-fulfilling prophecies. So what do we need to do? Hundreds of things, hundreds of things, but probably the most significant is accept it won't happen naturally and accept that we have to make manual interventions like, for example, 50-50 target setting and just making that commitment to very simply women are 50% of the population, pretty undebatable. that they have equal intelligence, equal capability, equal leadership ability, by the way, that's also proven now.
And therefore they should have 50% of the representation, 50% of the leadership, assuming that they want to, obviously, I'm not trying to force everyone to be a CEO. I don't want to be a CEO. I'd be a CEO if I wanted to be a CEO, but women should have the equal opportunity to do that. And unless we say, We're committing to that and that companies and organizations set that as a target and truly measure themselves on it and say, when we recruit, that's how we recruit.
We have failed if we didn't manage to find that 50% of women because we know that they're out there. And when they look at their levels and who they're promoting, we are failing if we're not reaching that 50-50 at each level. If they really, really look at themselves that way and say, the women are out there. I'm just not finding them and I need to change things in order to find them.
If they do that, it will eventually happen that we'll get to those top levels and we'll start to see 50-50 up there. And that will mean that half the time the CEOs will be women and half the time the CEOs will be men or leaders of the country or whatever. And I know it's not popular, the target thing, and I didn't used to.

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believe in it and I used to say all the cliche things that really irritate me now when people say them about merit and all of that stuff but I've come to believe it's actually the only way because if you don't do that the self-fulfilling prophecy will just keep fulfilling itself forever because we'll just keep convincing ourselves for all of those invisible reasons that well I wanted to find a woman or I wanted to promote a woman or I wanted to hire a woman but the man was just better so I gave him the job when we know. that might be true 50% of the time, it cannot possibly be true 90% plus at the time.
I wanna come back to one of the first things that you've said here. So we talked about the fact that we don't, and I'm gonna say we, all genders, all of us, I don't know that we see it as a problem. We don't see it as something that we really need to solve now. And we know that the data has had limited impact. I also want to point to the fact that the amount of people that have been working on this and creating this data, and it has been having some impact.
What we're saying here is that we want to see more radical change. And so how do we really get that engagement? How do we get both men and women, the reluctant feminists, the queen bees, the people that really get it, the women that really get it, all genders that really get it. There's a ton of very, very good people in leadership positions that get it. Look, there are a number that don't and are horrible about it as well as there is with any kind of big issue.
And if it's a respect gap, conscious or unconscious, and I know there's tons of stuff out there about unconscious bias. How do we get that engagement? How do we get them really understanding when we're in those meetings, for example, that there's a different way of doing this, and it's a good way, and it can positively impact everybody? In your view, how do we change that? Lots of things to do. I mean, let's, simplistically, let's talk women, and then let's talk men, and what each needs to do.
I think for women, Probably the first and most important thing is to stop accepting it. We're kind of conditioned from birth with everything that we're seeing to just accept that this is normal. This is just the way it is, right? It's just the way that it is. I don't think women think that we're inferior or less intelligent or less capable. I think at some level, though, we've just accepted this is the way the world is and it's, you know, it's run by men.
I think we have to stop doing that as women. We have to train ourselves to say, when I don't see 50%, I'm going to question it and I'm going to raise it as a problem. And that includes in the home, by the way. You know, stop accepting that women generally do 80% of the unpaid work for the family. And I know there are exceptions and there are women who don't and there are men who do, but in general, that is true.
And women just… accept it. You know, I always say, I do it. You know, I found myself, you know, earlier in the year, I'd done a day of really hard work, really hard work on the book, really hard work on some consulting work. I mean, it would be like 10, 11 hours of really hard work. And I found myself in the kitchen preparing dinner while the two men in my life We're outside on the terrace having a gin and tonic.
Do you know what my new phrase is? How I deal with that at home? Go on. I say, so I'll give you an example. So my son said to me the other day, where's my breakfast? And I say, what is this 1952? That's my new phrase. And my daughter said, I was talking about someone who just got married. And she said, Oh, is she going to leave her job? And I said, what is this 1952?
So that's something I say now. And they're like, what, what do you mean? Well, you know, in the 1950s, there were a number of jobs where you got married. You had to, you know, you had to leave your job if you got married and women would do much more of the cooking and cleaning and everything than perhaps they do today. So it was a good sort of lead in. It also reminds me, I got inspired by this quote actually, to write my book, my second book that I know you're part of.
Gloria Steinem last year, when asked, What do women need to do? She said, women, we need to be less grateful and more rebellious. And that really points to what you're talking about, because I think we think it's also risky, don't we? Like, oh, my God, can I speak up? Will I be known as the feminist at work? Is it going to be career limiting? What people think of me? I mean, I understand all these things and.
We've got to start questioning things. We can do it articulately without people thinking. And even if people do think that we've lost the plot, I think it's a good thing because we need to start raising this stuff more in the moment. I've seen so many women, we've talked about this before, developing the, you know, 25 to 50 page business case with all the data in it for why gender equality is important.
It lands on someone's desks and sits there collecting dust.

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I mean, it's a delay tactic and it's a not very helpful way of doing things. So that clearly doesn't work. I'm thinking also about emotions. Can we talk about, is there anything you have to say there? I mean, I just think all this data and head stuff isn't working. So do we need to engage more emotionally? I think the data stuff, I think it can work. But to your point, it has to be internalized, which requires emotion in the sense that it requires experience.
So if we talk about so women, we've said we've got to stop accepting it and we've got to start speaking up. And, you know, the system has done a very, very clever job of teaching us not only to do all of this stuff and to do more than 50 percent at home and to accept less than 50% representation. But it's also taught us, as you say, we're not going to be liked if we mention it.
So it just reinforces the whole thing. And it's very, very real. It's very real that by the way, I mean, I was absolutely told to back off the women's stuff when I was. senior, a senior vice president, because it didn't service it's very real when these women feel this. But yeah, you know, you know, to the to the data emotion question, I think this comes to men, you know, what, what do we need to do with men?
I think the first thing is, we've got to stop to do with men. What do we need to do with men? Stop alienating them. I think so much of what is written Some brilliant stuff has been written, but there's no way you'd read it if you were a man. You would put it down after a page because it's so angry with you. You just wouldn't read it. And I think that's the emotion part.
It's like anything in this life. You don't win an argument. You don't persuade anyone with anger and with attacks, right? You persuade somebody by having a conversation and discussion. by showing that person that you understand where they're coming from and that you don't think they're the devil. And that's one of the things that I really, really try to do. And it was a massive intention of the book was to include men and to really make them feel like, yeah, this is for me as much as for anyone else.
And really making them understand that they absolutely will benefit from this. I think that's been too much. Part of the problem is it's still seen by so many as a win or lose thing. as, you know, women get a piece of the pie, men lose a piece of the pie. And it's just not that at all. And I think the more that we can really help men understand by discussing with them rather than beating them over the head with it, that there really is a case for how they will truly win from gender equality, not just in the workplace, they will, but also at home, also at home.
I mean, So many men have told me this year that they want to be… I kind of went into the year going, I'm livid. I'm livid because men aren't pulling their weight. I'm livid because men aren't doing 50-50. I've kind of changed my point of view. Obviously, some men aren't. There are a hell of a lot of men out there who want to do 50-50. They want to be 50-50 part of their kids' lives, doing their share at home, not seeing their partner. carrying everything and, you know, breaking with stress and lack of sleep.
But they're absolutely not supported by society or by their employer to do it. They're absolutely not. Their employers are basically saying, well, yeah, of course there's, you know, technically you can work flexibly but that's basically really for the women you know the women are taking care of the kids aren't they so many men saying you know my partner's being given flexibility i'm not i am absolutely expected to still deliver i hit the deadline to hit the same stuff so i think really yes there's the business case and the business case is real and and i i do think we need to find a way to to get men and companies to truly understand that.
I think that will be experiential. I think they need to experience it. They need to see it in front of their eyes and say, oh my God, it really does work, this diversity thing. But I think to your point also emotionally, yeah, your relationship is going to be better. Your family life is going to be better. Your relationship with your kids, if you have them, is going to be better. By the way, your society, the country you live in is going to be happier.
So I think it is. It's data, but yes, I think expressed in a way that people understand, yeah, this isn't just about a company making 10% more profit. That's fantastic, but that's not really what motivates us entirely in life, is it? I really want to focus on good men because there are so many and I, to your point, yes, we vilified men big time on this and that's you know, a huge part of what's been going on here.
And I think that the men that get it and want to make a change and are already making changes are the ones for us to really focus on. And I was thinking as you were talking, there's been a lot over the past years about the business case for men to be convinced.

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there's been a lot as well hasn't there about what if you have a daughter you know you want your daughter to be able to grow up in a gender equal world that and that you know works to to a good extent for those that do have daughters but what you're speaking to here is the personal motivation of men and we're all the same aren't we when we're personally motivated on something we're going to be more compelled to do it so if a man wants to have flexible working and why not If a man wants to be able to have a happier work-life balance as well, and why not?
I think it really adds to that benefit. I've met many men over the years involved in CEOs and on the board of big companies like the one that you work for. And they always say to me the same thing, I get it, what do I need to do? It's almost like, just give me the to-do list. give me the things I need to do. And they will go off and do it, you know, they'll implement those things.
And to your earlier point, I think some of it is quite simple. And, you know, if you don't, if you don't really think about it, you don't do it. So for example, having a recruitment shortlist that's 50-50, if you don't really think about it, and you haven't really occurred to you before like it didn't to you you know for years and years you would go into meetings and you would think whatever men and women if it doesn't occur to you it doesn't occur to you until somebody either tells you to look at it or suddenly you're in a different type of environment so maybe that's something there like really educating on okay here are some simple things you can do that will make you know make that kind of difference when you're in meetings you know, really making sure that there is that respect and air time for everybody.
And you know, Sam, I've got, I mean, I've got, I have literally a massive to-do list for everyone and that includes the men and I, and then in many ways the one for men is most important and it absolutely does include to-dos for them in meetings and, you know, this is what's happening, this is what you need to do about it to make sure that you're really getting the best out of the the women in the group.
But I think motivation, this is one area where I hope COVID is going to help us because I think many men have seen and experienced a life of frankly just being at home more and having more time with their family, with their kids if they have them. And I think many men have really liked that. And don't get me wrong, there have been many downsides. But I think there are more men now than ever, who are saying, I absolutely I want to be part of a world where we, you know, work is more hybrid.
And yes, of course, I work, but I don't frankly waste so much time commuting and all of that stuff. And I just have some more time to do some of the things that are important to me. and beyond work. And I think that's going to bring a motivation, which I really hope will turn into men making demands, having expectations, saying, hey, you know that flexible work policy? I expect it to be gender neutral.
I don't expect it just to be a mum policy. And importantly, that our response to that will be to be supportive and to stop with the eyebrow raising. And while he's not very committed to his job, is he? And to say, do you know what? This works and it's OK for everyone to do it, whatever your gender, as long as you get the work done, we don't really care where you do it.
So I think a lot of motivation will come from that. I honestly think a lot of men didn't even know what they were missing out on before this this last year. So I'm hoping that makes a difference. And the other thing that I hope will be a motivation you know I spend a huge amount of my time consulting with companies so consulting with companies who are good companies full of good decent people obviously many of the men for all the reasons that we've taught really good intentions who absolutely they get this and they are the men you're talking about who are saying tell me what to do give me the to-do list and what I'm hoping is that the more of those companies that we can turn around on this, the more of those companies that we can take from, okay, 20% of women at your senior levels to 50%, which will, and I will bet my everything I own on it, which will turn into better results for them and better sustainable results for them.
The other companies that they compete with are going to see that, and that's going to be motivation. They are going to say, what on earth have those guys done? because their results are better than they've ever been. They're going to quickly understand what they've done. And that will be the motivation to copy. I mean, we that's how the world works. People move away from things that are horrible and deliver horrible outcomes.
And they copy things that are great and deliver great outcomes. So that that's what I think we need to keep doing. I always say gender equality. We're going to get there one person at a time. We're going to get there one company at a time. But eventually

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that is going to cascade eventually into everyone saying, I want, I want to work like that. I want those outcomes until eventually we just have a few little dinosaurs left who will eventually retire and then we'll be, you know, left with equality, I hope. But one by one, it's a lot of work. So maybe it won't be 137 years. I was watching because I'm slightly addicted to them. videos on YouTube of people in their 90s.
Tell me why. I had a big 50th birthday, so I'm kind of looking ahead. And they were all talking about their lives and their regrets, you know, anything they would do differently. Interestingly, none of them said they had any regrets, which I thought was really cool. They were all kind of like, my life was my life kind of thing. So let's fast forward to you at 95, which I know is a long, long way away.
So fun. Slow, long. Not far enough away, Sam. So 95, you're 95, I'm around the same age and we are, where are we? We're on a cruise ship because that's a lot of… We're having a cocktail. Of course, yeah. We're having a cocktail and I think a foot massage at the same time because that's a great combination, isn't it? and the person that's doing the foot-marsh now says what did you two do with your lives or we're chatting about our lives whatever what do you want us to be saying apart from give me another cocktail definitely that i mean i will obviously have to say i did spend a lot of my life selling a lot of soap and moisturizer i did do a lot of that but yeah i hope I will be able, I'm gonna start negatively and then I'll go positive.
I don't believe I'm going to see gender equality in my lifetime because it's so difficult and it's, as I said, the invisible forces are so strong. We've got so much work to do to understand them and overcome them. But what I hope I will be able to say is that I have made my contribution. to some genuine progress, genuine, genuine progress and that we truly are on the road. We're not stuck, you know, fewer than 10% women in any leadership positions.
We're not at true 50-50 true equality yet, but we genuinely are on the path and we're at or beyond the tipping point where the self-fulfilling prophecy cannot possibly keep fulfilling anymore. So I hope I'm going to have grandchildren, no pressure on my son, but I really hope we'll be able to see on the horizon that it truly is going to happen for the next generation or please the one after that. And that, you know, you and I have played our part in it, whatever that has been.
You know, I'm thinking actually, you know, sometimes you can go onto these cruise ships and do seminars and stuff. So maybe that's it. We're like the two 95 year olds leading this cruise ship. You know what I'm going to be saying to you? I'm thinking about this as an option. I think I'm going to be saying to you. Do you remember in 2021, we did that podcast and you said, in a very judgmental way, you said that you'd never see gender equality.
Look, it's here. I would love that. I don't want to be wrong. I don't like to be wrong, Sam, but I'll take that. I will take that. The ying and the yang, Mrs. Positive and Mrs. Realistic. What a great combination. Well, thank you very much, Ms. Whitley Collins. It never escapes me that you have the same name as my mother. I know we've talked about that many, many times. Jill, Jill with a G, very important thing.
Thank you for your comments. Thank you for your insights. Thank you for your book, Why Men Win at Work, now, but not forever. Any final thoughts, call to action? Well, just, you know, it's called Why Men Win at Work, but that's the irony, isn't it? They're not really winning. And so many men write to me and say, I don't know why your book's called this because we're not really winning. And I said, well, read it.
And then you'll see that I agree with you. You're not really winning and you'd be winning so much bigger at work. And by the way in life is if you weren't sort of winning in the obvious way at work. So yeah, I just, just need to I sit down beside them and talk with them about this, I think, more. And you know, I get a lot of, obviously I post a lot, I share a lot, I get a lot of comments, most of it really supportive.
And then occasionally I will get attacked by a man who makes assumptions that I'm a man-hating devil. And you know, it's really tempting to respond to that with a…

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an aggressive response. And I always stop myself because they say, Jill, the whole point of what you're doing is that you want to persuade men to understand gender equality, why it works, why it's good, why it happens, and how to overcome it. So when a man disagrees with you, you have to go to them and sit down with them and talk it through. rather than fight with them because we don't get anywhere with that.
So that's what I'll keep doing until 95 and beyond, if necessary. So we're going to make it to at least 103, I think. So we know we will have a few years on the cruise ship to be doing the things that we're doing. You know, it really strikes me that, you know, to get kind of a bit more deep and spiritual in this conversation. that there is some healing to be done here.
And I know that's maybe not a sort of a popular idea or concept, especially sort of for the business world, perhaps. But I think we understand that, that there has been so much guilting and shaming and vilifying, and actually the more that we can come together, and that's in a very positive way. That doesn't need to be in sort of this weak way. that it really is an opportunity here to bring people together.
Because as you rightly say, 90% of the world is run by men. And however we identify within our gender, we do need to get to a point where it's not a thing. It's not a sort of relevant point, and maybe that will be after we're gone, but then we'll have to come back, right? You're so right. Healing is a great word for it, I think, because I always say that gender wars, stop the gender wars, stop it.
It's not going to get us. I understand why it happens. We've got anger. People are angry about things that happen, things that have happened, but you don't resolve anything with that. Has anyone got an example of anything that was resolved? with anger things are resolved by mutual understanding and mutual respect and understanding mutual benefit and that is absolutely the only way that we're going to get there and I know it's hard sometimes but we've got to do it and you know if I were a man I would not want to engage on this if I was being attacked and accused and vilified as you say and you know we sometimes people send me stuff and say oh you should post this it shows that women are better leaders or whatever and I say no I have absolutely no agenda to continue gender battles about you know well men say they're better but women that is not helpful it's just it's not going to get us anywhere I don't believe women are better than men.
I don't believe men are better than women. I just genuinely believe we're all equal. That doesn't mean we're the same, but we're all equal. And I think if we start from that, and we stop trying to win over each other or, you know, threaten each other with the loss of something, we'll get a lot further a lot faster, I think. Brilliant. Thank you very much, Jill. Thank you for having me. Oh, my pleasure.
My pleasure. I love talking with you. I always say this and we just don't do it yet but we need to find some ways to do some work together. Well we will I think once we can be in the same place it's going to be awesome. All right my darling. Thank you lovely to see you and I love your t-shirt and anyone who didn't notice it. Well we're a podcast so it's audio so they won't be able to see it.
Women belong in all the places where the scissors are being made. Right we need to bring in, we'll bring in RBG to everything. Spirit of RBG.

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